Windsor Hifi Show - simple systems ruled

[morricab]

A week ago I had Vitus SIA 025 on audition for few days.
Very nice timbre and overall classy SS amp indeed, the first integrated SS design I could live for long with.
For the half of price my Crossfire III is more saturated with better imaging and more holografic sound though.
And to my surprise also the bass is better with my SET amp.

Why are you looking for a replacement for the Crossfire III then? You could consider KR Audio...I love them as well and they are great on AGs.

 

[morricab]

Also you have duos and the speakers are the more important part of the equation.

I have compared, on trios, audionote 300b 9w integrated, which paled in comparison to their own 150w class A SS. So what conclusions can you draw? None, because the airtight 9w 300b was the best of the 3, though only marginally compared to their own, and the trio tone was what it is. You either liked it with both or you did not like it with either.

Audiopax is quite preferred on them and it is 30w valve push pull. As you know Mike from audioshark has converted a couple to trios by matching it with Vitus

Obviously design of an amp is important. FWIW, the AG amp is not Class A. I thought that the new AudioPax Majjore amps are parallel SET where each tube can be biased individually for sound tailoring.

 

[morricab]

There is a big difference between their integrated and the SM 102. Like the Lampi level 3 and the big 7. Agreed they are too expensive

Also, a lot of people listen to SS badly set up and hear a hard edge. Once that edge is taken care of, they can sound really organic, at least the good ones. Most importantly, listen to a spectral should sterile with digital and then add a good TT for tone. It will transform from sterile to a superb combination of tone, dynamics, speed, jump and bass

I think you need to explain what you mean here with regard to "SS badly" and "edge is taken care of". How do they take care of the edge? How are they listening to SS badly? it is really unclear here what listeners are supposedly doing wrong and how that is taken care based on your somewhat vague comments.

 

[morricab]

Marslo, my approach is not to look at budget the way you did, but to total the budget across. So I could easily turn that around to say don't tell me you have to get duos and ayon when you can get a duetta and electrocompaniet

Duetta with Electrocompaniet = not so good sound.

 

[morricab]

I agree with you that the synergy is a key factor so every amp may sound different depending on speakers and source.
I am not against Vitus, I asked for the audition because in Munich 2014 I was amazed how good sounded Trios driven by Vitus Master class power amp.
My new Duo Mezzo XD sound different from G2 AG series and I am trying to find the best integrated amplification for them , Crossfire III is still difficult to beat though.
As you know I listened twice to Audiopax/AG combo and was not impressed.

Aries Cerat Diana is likely a Crossfire III beater...if you have the space for it.

 

[bonzo75]

Duetta with Electrocompaniet = not so good sound.

My point was, for those who don't like the duos, even duetta driven by a Parasound sounds better - nothing fancy required.

 

[microstrip]

Duetta with Electrocompaniet = not so good sound.

Sorry, I have listened to the Duetta II's with an Electrocompaniet AW250 sounding great ... I have owned until recently an old AW250 and currently host a Parasound HCA3500. I really prefer the Electrocompaniet sound, surely YMMV.

BTW, this thread is missing my preferred type of amplifier - the high power, high quality tube push pull, such as the conrad johnson LP275m or the Audio Research REF750. Or the high power OTL - such as the Atmasphere MA2.

 

[KeithR]

First of all the SIT is all transistor, which seems to matter for headroom and second it has only 10 watts. All the SETs we used had double to triple the power. The NAT had 100 watts. That plus tube headroom gives plenty of power.

If it was distorting then it was still cleaner, clearer and just plain more interesting than big SS amps we have tried like the Mc MC501 monos.

Much easier to hear SS distortion than tube, hence why I found the test so interesting. Have you ever tested a low power SS amp? The SIT monoblocks had more headroom, despite same wattage fyi.

What peaks were you seeing on the Mac 501s? I had 601s and saw 6 watt peaks often during music passages. Very good amps on my 101db Zus. In fact, my Audion SET friend (Golden Dreams and Black Shadows) only recommends Mac quad balanced amps for SS on Zu speakers in general. My guess is the Macs didn't like the 2ohm loads of the Thiels, as an amp without autoformers (Jim used Krell) works better.

But I'm simply suggesting Thiel is not an ideal match with SET because of higher distortion w/ power, while actual power is considerably lower than spec bc of Thiel's lower impedance. Seems like compromise 101.

 

[morricab]

Much easier to hear SS distortion than tube, hence why I found the test so interesting. Have you ever tested a low power SS amp? The SIT monoblocks had more headroom, despite same wattage fyi.

What peaks were you seeing on the Mac 501s? I had 601s and saw 6 watt peaks often during music passages. Very good amps on my 101db Zus. In fact, my Audion SET friend (Golden Dreams and Black Shadows) only recommends Mac quad balanced amps for SS on Zu speakers in general. My guess is the Macs didn't like the 2ohm loads of the Thiels, as an amp without autoformers (Jim used Krell) works better.

But I'm simply suggesting Thiel is not an ideal match with SET because of higher distortion w/ power, while actual power is considerably lower than spec bc of Thiel's lower impedance. Seems like compromise 101.

The SIT monoblocks had more headroom, despite same wattage fyi.

More wattage than what? The stereo SIT? Or a tube SET? Where did you see the dynamic headroom of the amp measured? Just would like to see that data.


Well, suggest what you want, I have plenty of proof that it works rather well, with at least 4 different SETs. So well, in fact, that this friend sold his MC501s and eventually went SET. Most of the time the power was cruising around 1 watt or less but peaks could be as high as 20-50 watts when we had it cranked up a bit. Funny thing about distortion increasing with power...your hearing gets less sensitive to distortion the louder it gets. This means a SET is performing best when it counts the most and worst when it matters the least...at least with decent sensitivity speakers. The problem with a lot of other amps is that the distortion % is either constant or increasing as the power goes DOWN (at least until clipping). Also the harmonics are of higher order content, which is less well masked by the ear/brain and are therefore MORE audible at low listening levels. This is harmful to the realism of the sound on many levels.

 

[morricab]

Sorry, I have listened to the Duetta II's with an Electrocompaniet AW250 sounding great ... I have owned until recently an old AW250 and currently host a Parasound HCA3500. I really prefer the Electrocompaniet sound, surely YMMV.

BTW, this thread is missing my preferred type of amplifier - the high power, high quality tube push pull, such as the conrad johnson LP275m or the Audio Research REF750. Or the high power OTL - such as the Atmasphere MA2.

Sorry, I have listened to the Duetta II's with an Electrocompaniet AW250 sounding great ... I have owned until recently an old AW250 and currently host a Parasound HCA3500. I really prefer the Electrocompaniet sound, surely YMMV.

Umm...ok if you liked it I can't say you didn't. However, I and nearly all my Apogee friends dumped big SS amps for either hybrids or SETs. OTLs can sound really good on them as well. I once had Silvaweld OTL reference monos...they sounded great when they could hold their bias. But having 4 x 6C33C per mono was too much trouble and too much heat. They drove the hell out of electrostats as well. I also had a pair briefly of Transcenent Sound "Beast" OTLs that I built myself. They didn't drive electrostats at all...they oscillated like hell once you put any power into the speaker. Sounded great on conventional speakers though... As to big Push/pull tubes? I have only heard the two that I thought I would like to own...one is the CAT JL2 Signature and the other is the Jadis Defy 7 III. Nothing I have heard from VTL, AUdio Research, Octave etc. has convinced me (in fact I think top notch hybrids sound better like Ypsilon).

Another Class of amp that is very good, nearly SET good, is the Class A push/pull triode amp (THe CAT actually falls in this category). A VAC PHI 70 or Antique Sound Lab Cadenza DT would also tackle tough speakers with relative ease and convincing sound.

I have heard Electrocompaniet get SPANKED in two different systems by a KR Audio VA350i. One system was the Acapella Violon in a moderately large room. Despite have a horn mid and a horn loaded plasma tweeter, the overall sensitivity of that system is only about 92db/watt. It destroyed the AW250 in everything...including bass power and control...it was an ugly defeat. And that was even feeding both with an Ayre K-1x preamp. The other was the Focal Grande Utopia Be EM (the electromagnetic damping bass...pretty cool) against the Nemo amps. Again, it wasn't close and the KR drove that 94db/watt Focal with ease and power in a relatively large room.

Maybe it drove the Duetta II, ok, it is a pretty resistive load...but it also one of the darker sounding Apogees...the Duetta Signature was a better balanced speaker. No offense to John Curl but I haven't heard a good sounding Parasound yet.

 

[marslo]

edit.

 

[marslo]

Why are you looking for a replacement for the Crossfire III then? You could consider KR Audio...I love them as well and they are great on AGs.

Morricab,

Just to check for other options . I have KR tubes in my Lampi and if I only have the opportunity to audition their SET amps I will give them a listen.

 

[morricab]

Morricab,

Just to check for other options . I have KR tubes in my Lampi and if I only have the opportunity to audition their SET amps I will give them a listen.

We have briefly compared the KR VA350i to the Crossfire III and while the character is not exactly the same they are at comparable sound quality. The VA 680i should be better.

 

[LL21]

A week ago I had Vitus SIA 025 on audition for few days.
Very nice timbre and overall classy SS amp indeed, the first integrated SS design I could live for long with.
For the half of price my Crossfire III is more saturated with better imaging and more holografic sound though.
And to my surprise also the bass is better with my SET amp.

Most interesting...I have done a little bit of reading about Ayon. Your comments and Morriscab's have me intrigued. Having heard Avantgarde only a little, my gut tells me i would also like to hear them with high quality tubes as Ayon seems to design as well. Given your location, are you able to hear Gryphon by any chance? I have not heard Karan, so cannot say if they are similar or not. Just curious as to any impressions you have about other SS with your speakers. thanks.

Also curious if you have heard Ayon's other amps...they seem to make a few other models that continue to go higher and higher in SOTA.

 

[morricab]

Most interesting...I have done a little bit of reading about Ayon. Your comments and Morriscab's have me intrigued. Having heard Avantgarde only a little, my gut tells me i would also like to hear them with high quality tubes as Ayon seems to design as well. Given your location, are you able to hear Gryphon by any chance? I have not heard Karan, so cannot say if they are similar or not. Just curious as to any impressions you have about other SS with your speakers. thanks.

Also curious if you have heard Ayon's other amps...they seem to make a few other models that continue to go higher and higher in SOTA.

Listened to Stravinsky Petruschka and Rite of Spring today on Decca (Riccardo Chailly, Royal Concertgebouw) and it was fantastic with the Ayon. My room and speaker spacing does not allow the full width of space that one would get live, but depth and most importantly instrument separation were superb even when it got busy but when it was quiet what struck me most were two things:; 1) the tone and sense of space around individual instruments: flute, Oboe, piano, bassoon, Trompets etc. They had quite believeable tone and dynamic contrasts. The second was the bass...the Ayon gives my Odeons real heft and at the same time superb control. With the big bass drum you could easily hear the mallett impact followed by a big round Boom that stopped sometimes slowly and sometimes quickly (I am assuming that the percussionist was damping it at times). Finally, the Tympani drums have never been clearer or more well defined in the evolution from impact to decay. The tone was full an textured...I was loving it each time they were struck because it was a very much like I hear live. Now this is a great recording and with lesser recordings all this details gets to greater or lesser degrees lost in the mix. I have some Tchaikovsky recordings on Decca that also deliver this kind of impact and resolution and my system handles them quite well but with the same caveats noted above. Chamber music though can sound quite realistic in most respects.

 

[LL21]

Listened to Stravinsky Petruschka and Rite of Spring today on Decca (Riccardo Chailly, Royal Concertgebouw) and it was fantastic with the Ayon. My room and speaker spacing does not allow the full width of space that one would get live, but depth and most importantly instrument separation were superb even when it got busy but when it was quiet what struck me most were two things:; 1) the tone and sense of space around individual instruments: flute, Oboe, piano, bassoon, Trompets etc. They had quite believeable tone and dynamic contrasts. The second was the bass...the Ayon gives my Odeons real heft and at the same time superb control. With the big bass drum you could easily hear the mallett impact followed by a big round Boom that stopped sometimes slowly and sometimes quickly (I am assuming that the percussionist was damping it at times). Finally, the Tympani drums have never been clearer or more well defined in the evolution from impact to decay. The tone was full an textured...I was loving it each time they were struck because it was a very much like I hear live. Now this is a great recording and with lesser recordings all this details gets to greater or lesser degrees lost in the mix. I have some Tchaikovsky recordings on Decca that also deliver this kind of impact and resolution and my system handles them quite well but with the same caveats noted above. Chamber music though can sound quite realistic in most respects.

great feedback!! Thanks and may look into those recordings as well!

 

[marslo]

Most interesting...I have done a little bit of reading about Ayon. Your comments and Morriscab's have me intrigued. Having heard Avantgarde only a little, my gut tells me i would also like to hear them with high quality tubes as Ayon seems to design as well. Given your location, are you able to hear Gryphon by any chance? I have not heard Karan, so cannot say if they are similar or not. Just curious as to any impressions you have about other SS with your speakers. thanks.

Also curious if you have heard Ayon's other amps...they seem to make a few other models that continue to go higher and higher in SOTA.

Sorry I did not answer.
Last 3 days I was very busy because of Audio Video Show in Warsaw and also because of my second granddaughter's baptism.
Will try to share my thoughts within a few days but Morricab did already a great job

 

[LL21]

Sorry I did not answer.
Last 3 days I was very busy because of Audio Video Show in Warsaw and also because of my second granddaughter's baptism.
Will try to share my thoughts within a few days but Morricab did already a great job

Congrats and thank you!

 

[LL21]

Listened to Stravinsky Petruschka and Rite of Spring today on Decca (Riccardo Chailly, Royal Concertgebouw) and it was fantastic with the Ayon. My room and speaker spacing does not allow the full width of space that one would get live, but depth and most importantly instrument separation were superb even when it got busy but when it was quiet what struck me most were two things:; 1) the tone and sense of space around individual instruments: flute, Oboe, piano, bassoon, Trompets etc. They had quite believeable tone and dynamic contrasts. The second was the bass...the Ayon gives my Odeons real heft and at the same time superb control. With the big bass drum you could easily hear the mallett impact followed by a big round Boom that stopped sometimes slowly and sometimes quickly (I am assuming that the percussionist was damping it at times). Finally, the Tympani drums have never been clearer or more well defined in the evolution from impact to decay. The tone was full an textured...I was loving it each time they were struck because it was a very much like I hear live. Now this is a great recording and with lesser recordings all this details gets to greater or lesser degrees lost in the mix. I have some Tchaikovsky recordings on Decca that also deliver this kind of impact and resolution and my system handles them quite well but with the same caveats noted above. Chamber music though can sound quite realistic in most respects.

Are you referring to this recording? 1947? Just checking...thanks!

 

[Elberoth]

I wish. Actually, i wanted to visit this show this year but did not plan correctly and then couldn't change my tickets. Did not know it was so big though

You should have come ...

When I first booked in to cover AVS 2016, I had no idea what to expect from it. Now that I’ve been there and done that, I can say with confidence that Poland’s Audio Video Show is poised to become one of the largest and most influential hi-fi events in the world. It has great organization, and insofar as the National Stadium goes, an incredible location. Come in 2017 and see if you agree. I think we’re coming back with a bigger team!

Doug Schneider
Founder, SoundStage!

http://www.soundstageglobal.com/ind...tional-stadium-hi-fi-s-best-ever-show-setting

This is the first Warsaw that we at Hifi Pig have attended but we’re so happy we made the effort because it has been undoubtedly one of the best, if not THE best we’ve been to. The people of Warsaw have been wonderfully welcoming, the food and drink has been spectacularly good and the company we’ve enjoyed has been marvellous.

http://hifipig.com/audio-video-show-2016-warsaw/