World Debut: Vertere Reference Tonearm

[FrantzM]

I think a lot of us here are missing my simple point. The designer (Touraj) of this particular tonearm has set a price for it that he believes that the market will bear. Whether this is correct or not will be borne out in the result of how many he sells. Perhaps, at this price price point, selling just one item will suffice. Perhaps, he needs to sell x number before a sufficient profit is accrued. What is interesting is that somehow, Touraj believes or knows, that a price of $35K will result in at least enough sales to make this endeavor worthwhile for him. My point, again, is how does he arrive at this number....versus a number that is either much higher or much lower. Since it would appear on the face of it that the pricing of many high-end items is purely arbitrary, a $35K tonearm (even if it is the best sounding tonearm in the world...and for this price it had better be, IMO) is a conundrum. The conundrum relates to what is the maximum price a potential Buyer would pay for such a device, before ALL potential Buyer's shout 'enough is enough'. Therefore, my question to Touraj is: $35K...why not $350K or better still $3.5M or? BTW, this pricing question does apply to all manufacturer's of high-end gear...what will your market bear before you have simply "overpriced". Does your market research ( which I am assuming is in fact done...perhaps a VERY BIG assumption) correspond with your pricing strategy...inquiring minds etc, etc.

+1

This thread is fun

 

[Steve williams]

Mike

I'm not picking on you or anyone and I apologize if it comes across that way

When statements are made here we can challenge the post

All I was wondering is why a $5K plate is needed to make a $16.5K tonearm free of distortion especially when you never heard it before.

This isn't picking on someone. Maybe I should have asked why Joel Durand didn't use something other than metal if he knew there was distortion with that configuration

 

[jazdoc]

No, that is not correct. He did not set a price. He designed the best tonearm he could, and toted up the cost of all the parts if he made these tonearms in batches of 5. That resulted in the arm price. It does not include amortization of the the 2 years of research and development. He will eventually recoup his investment selling at the usual margins of this crazy industry, but knowing Touraj, he will continually improve it and the price will only go up as his costs go up. Witness the pricing on the Artemiz from 1986 to today.

I had the opportunity to watch as Joel Durand developed the Talea and Telos tonearms and echo Gary's insights. It's not fair just to total up the costs of the materials in the finished product. Joel literally has a museum of prototypes for his tonearm parts and that doesn't count all parts that are rejected for not meeting his exacting requirements for fit and finish. Joel literally has tried multiple materials for every part in his tonearms, some of which like sapphire are extremely expensive raw materials that can be equally expensive to machine. That doesn't even begin to account for design time, cost of assembly, prototype testing, etc. IMO, the results are a relative bargain at the asking price, provided the rest of the system is up to snuff. Whether the cost is worth it to you is an individual value judgement.

I trust Gary's ears and experience and although I wouldn't spend the money on it, I'd love to hear what the Vertere can do in a state of the art system.

 

[jazdoc]

Mike

I'm not picking on you or anyone and I apologize if it comes across that way

When statements are made here we can challenge the post

All I was wondering is why a $5K plate is needed to make a $16.5K tonearm free of distortion especially when you never heard it before.

This isn't picking on someone. Maybe I should have asked why Joel Durand didn't use something other than metal if he knew there was distortion with that configuration

Steve,

I know you directed this to Mike, who I'm sure will provide his insights.

As Gary noted, the designers of these bespoke products often continue to push the envelope. Are Victor Lamm's or David Wilson's latest and greatest products better than their predecessors? Are they worth the additional investment, especially if they require purchase of a replacement product rather than a field upgrade?

I've heard the Telos at Mike's with the original metallic cartridge plate and with the sapphire plate and dammit, the sapphire plate is an improvement. Whether or not it's worth the $5k, I'll leave up to the consumer. I own a Telos and would love to upgrade but I've got a kid going to college next year....sigh

 

[cjfrbw]

Pricing strategies for craftsman hi end products seem hazardous.

Price too low, you make a target audience of sheiks and Wall Street warriors think you are a plebeian tinkerer. No bling value when the ruby encrusted buddies come over for scotch and cigars.

Price too high, you risk winding up in the rather extensive audiophile boneyard with other exotic luminaries of yore. If you then try to "tunnel through" to less stratospheric prices, you are seen as an opportunist from the get go.

The "well you haven't heard it yet" crowd will sing epiphanies, but they will be orgasmatroning about something else different in a few months, anyway.

Usually there is a lot of front end hype, followed by a fallow period, followed by a few disappointed voices stung by reality checks, followed by steep discounts.

The only tonearm I could conceive of that would justify that price would have to make every record sound like it's master tape played back on a hi end tape deck. I just don't think that is possible, vinyl will always be second fiddle, albeit a delightful second fiddle in analog.

 

[Steve williams]

Steve,

I know you directed this to Mike, who I'm sure will provide his insights.

As Gary noted, the designers of these bespoke products often continue to push the envelope. Are Victor Lamm's or David Wilson's latest and greatest products better than their predecessors? Are they worth the additional investment, especially if they require purchase of a replacement product rather than a field upgrade?

I've heard the Telos at Mike's with the original metallic cartridge plate and with the sapphire plate and dammit, the sapphire plate is an improvement. Whether or not it's worth the $5k, I'll leave up to the consumer. I own a Telos and would love to upgrade but I've got a kid going to college next year....sigh

Mark

I'm curious as to what you heard with the sapphire plate. Was it just something different or was it better and if so, in what way. I guess what I'm trying to understand is whether it was distortion that was removed or were you just hearing something different.

 

[FrantzM]

Pricing strategies for craftsman hi end products seem hazardous.

Price too low, you make a target audience of sheiks and Wall Street warriors think you are a plebeian tinkerer. No bling value when the ruby encrusted buddies come over for scotch and cigars.

Price too high, you risk winding up in the rather extensive audiophile boneyard with other exotic luminaries of yore. If you then try to "tunnel through" to less stratospheric prices, you are seen as an opportunist from the get go.

The "well you haven't heard it yet" crowd will sing epiphanies, but they will be orgasmatroning about something else different in a few months, anyway.

Usually there is a lot of front end hype, followed by a fallow period, followed by a few disappointed voices stung by reality checks, followed by steep discounts.

The only tonearm I could conceive of that would justify that price would have to make every record sound like it's master tape played back on a hi end tape deck. I just don't think that is possible, vinyl will always be second fiddle, albeit a delightful second fiddle in analog.

Wonderful post. Well put!!

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike

I'm not picking on you or anyone and I apologize if it comes across that way

When statements are made here we can challenge the post

thanks.

All I was wondering is why a $5K plate is needed to make a $16.5K tonearm free of distortion especially when you never heard it before.

'needed' is not how i would put it, more like what level of performance is desired for what cost.

This isn't picking on someone. Maybe I should have asked why Joel Durand didn't use something other than metal if he knew there was distortion with that configuration

the easy answer is that he likely did not know about how Sapphire would work in that application when the Telos was introduced. he had likely not thought of the possibility.

how can any designer predict the future? what he might find as he does his investigations of different materials? and if he does find a better way, should he offer it to his customers?

these are questions every designer/manufacturer must deal with. progress does not invalidate prior products; but progress is inevitable.

 

[jazdoc]

Mark

I'm curious as to what you heard with the sapphire plate. Was it just something different or was it better and if so, in what way. I guess what I'm trying to understand is whether it was distortion that was removed or were you just hearing something different.

Steve --

Great question and something I think we should always be asking ourselves: is it better or just different?

In this case I would have to say both with the caveat my assessment is based on auditioning in Mike's and Joel's systems. These systems are very different and I am quite familiar with both. (Truth be told, to date I've been resisting trying it in my system for fear of the inevitable financial consequence.) The noise floor slightly improves. The frequency extremes are more articulate and there is further improvement in image solidity. It really represents an evolutionary extension of the strengths of the Telos and I have yet to detect any downside (other than the cost), but Mike could probably elaborate further given his more extensive experience.

Don't want to derail this into a Telos discussion...we could continue on the Telos review thread. We should keep this threads focus on the Vertere.

 

[Steve williams]

My mantra with new gear gas always been "did I hear something different or something better and if better, how so"

I am asking if the sapphire is merely introducing a different coloration than that heard with the metal plate. IOW is this truly distortion

 

[TBone]

In my books, any audio component @ $35K needs justification. Perhaps, to others, it doesn't, but even if I could afford such silly toys, my particular audio based sensibilities would preclude me from such involvement.

But then again, I already have the tonearm (& system) I covet, so why would I care if you spend $35K on a tonearm or some magic pebble?

Justification is in the eye of the beholder, and that's perfectly fine with me. Spend away, spend at will, it maybe worth it ... in the meantime I'll enjoy my system without reservation. I'm content, my system is truly excellent, it took me years, a lot of research, a lot of trial & error to my system to what it is today.

And hell, I so enjoy witnessing the adventures of so many audiophiles who post about there adventures ... who remain in continuing search for "better" or more to the point ... "superior". Perhaps what they had was just "better", not superior, or it wasn't as "good" as they thought, perhaps it was "better" than they thought, but not suited to their needs or refinement skills, or perhaps it's simply a new audio horizon, new equipment calls from a far, or perhaps they just require change (I know more than a few high-end audiophiles who change gear just for change sake), or perhaps they think they've found yet another link to audio nirvana ... once again.

This saga has been played out before, it will be played out again, like an endless audiophile loop.

Now, don't get me wrong, this arm, for all I know, might resurrect John Bonham and his squeaky kit right before my very eyes, and that's VERY important to me considering Led is the one of a few iconic trips I failed to witness live. However, the very ONE item I've long learned regarding all things audio, at any expense, is that no reputation escapes the Honorable Judge Mr.Time. No amount of hype escapes his Honorableness's eventual stare. In fact, it's the one inevitability within audio that I count on for true ... justification.

tb1

 

[andromedaaudio]

(I know more than a few high-end audiophiles who change gear just for change sake)

.....Yep


but indeed spending 35 K on a arm , i would seriously want to know what i am buying and were that money went

 

[Steve williams]

(I know more than a few high-end audiophiles who change gear just for change sake).


.....Yep

You're joking right

 

[TBone]

You're joking right

No joke, but perhaps more of a riddle.

tb1

 

[andromedaaudio]

No not really there are a lot of designers/designs out there with interesting stuff which i would like to try out , like ML 33 Halcro , Wavac CAT power amps Lamm ,Dartzeel Kondo same goes for arms pre amps whatever , i do not mean i am not happy with the sound of my current system , which is the best i ve had ever

You're joking right

 

[TBone]

No not really there are a lot of designers/designs out there with interesting stuff which i would like to try out , like ML 33 Halcro , Wavac CAT power amps Lamm ,same goes for arms pre amps whatever , i do not mean i am not happy with the sound of my current system , which is the best i ve had ever

Hey, perhaps I'd like to demo many expansive sports cars, even though I'm very content and quite happy knowing my Ford Exploder will and can pull a boat, without issue, towards it's eventual destination.

tb1

 

[A.wayne]

Ridiculed for producing the best on WBF ....... Ironman level Irony ...

 

[Bruce B]

You're joking right

What gets me is that every little thing brings a new revelation like the universe just opened up and the Archangels were singing. How many times can this happen to one system? By the sound of it, must have been pretty bad to begin with to have this many levels being unveiled!

 

[mep]

Ridiculed for producing the best on WBF ....... Ironman level Irony ...

This is where the fallacy on this thread starts. There is a big difference between what is best and what is the most expensive. Right now this tonearm is just the most expensive. It has not been anointed by the cognoscenti as the World's Best Tonearm-yet. I don't find it to be a picture of beauty by any stretch of the imagination as it looks like it was cobbled together with some parts that were laying around a machine shop. I assume the pictures we are seeing represent a pre-production prototype. I shared the pictures with a friend of mine who is a machinist and he wasn't impressed. So before anybody jumps to conclusions that this arm must be the "best" tonearm because it is the most expensive, you need to sit back and take a deep breath. Maybe it will be anointed and maybe it won't. All we know at this point is that it will retail for $35K and Gary likes it.

As for the $650K turntable that keeps getting mentioned, are we talking about the German guy who shared some pictures on WBF? If so, this isn't a commercial product to my knowledge and may never be. So if this is the $650K table that keeps getting brought up, I think it should be dropped out of the conversation until it becomes a commercial reality.

 

[microstrip]

(...) Usually there is a lot of front end hype, followed by a fallow period, followed by a few disappointed voices stung by reality checks, followed by steep discounts.

The only tonearm I could conceive of that would justify that price would have to make every record sound like it's master tape played back on a hi end tape deck. I just don't think that is possible, vinyl will always be second fiddle, albeit a delightful second fiddle in analog.

In my view, usually means often, most of the times. I look around and fail to see it as rule. Unless you consider steep discounts a typical devaluation for used high-end gear after a few years - as people consider, the dealer margin is lost as soon as you sign the check.

We must not forget that magnetic tape degrades much faster than good quality vinyl. Most of the tapes that have been recorded tens of years ago sound much worst than when they were fresh, while good vinyl sounds as good as when it was manufactured. Better having a good fiddle than a cracked fiddle or dreaming about the neighbor fiddle.