World Debut: Vertere Reference Tonearm

[Steve williams]

What I fail to understand is how only high end systems that are revealing enough can make evident the inherent problems with a piece of gear. Not picking on MikeL but I just can't fathom buying a tonearm for $16.5K only to decide that a $5K sapphire plate is now needed to remove the distortion which I never heard in the first place. If a revealing system does this (not trying to be a wise a$$ now) then I'm really confused.

 

[microstrip]

In my books, any audio component @ $35K needs justification. Perhaps, to others, it doesn't, but even if I could afford such silly toys, my particular audio based sensibilities would preclude me from such involvement. (...)

Why should someone in an audio forum need to call other people audio equipment of silly toys ? Sorry, but IMHO there are some other sensibilities that are more important than the audio based sensibilities.

 

[microstrip]

As for the $650K turntable that keeps getting mentioned, are we talking about the German guy who shared some pictures on WBF? If so, this isn't a commercial product to my knowledge and may never be. So if this is the $650K table that keeps getting brought up, I think it should be dropped out of the conversation until it becomes a commercial reality.

Mep,
Good point. But as no one is brave enough to attack the $125K turntable, the hypothetical $650K joke is still alive and referred as a commercial product.

 

[Steve williams]

Mep,
Good point. But as no one is brave enough to attack the $125K turntable, the hypothetical $650K joke is still alive and referred as a commercial product.

He visited me last year from Germany. AFAIK his TT is a one off and that's it

 

[vinylphilemag]

What I fail to understand is how only high end systems that are revealing enough can make evident the inherent problems with a piece of gear. Not picking on MikeL but I just can't fathom buying a tonearm for $16.5K only to decide that a $5K sapphire plate is now needed to remove the distortion which I never heard in the first place. If a revealing system does this (not trying to be a wise a$$ now) then I'm really confused.

I hear you, but I think this would fall into the category of "you're not aware of a system's weaknesses until you hear better".

 

[Steve williams]

I hear you, but I think this would fall into the category of "you're not aware of a system's weaknesses until you hear better".

once again my mantra, "did you hear something different or something better and if better how so"

What I am wondering is whether we are trading one form of coloration for another

 

[andromedaaudio]

I bet for sure , one just picks his flavour ,which isnt bad if one strives for enjoyment and who knows it might be the most accurate after all.
If the hifi industry wants to get more serious then they should attempt things like this more , one on one comparisons

http://www.6moons.com/industryfeatures/zanden/zanden.html

once again my mantra, "did you hear something different or something better and if better how so"

What I am wondering is whether we are trading one form of coloration for another

 

[Mike Lavigne]

What I fail to understand is how only high end systems that are revealing enough can make evident the inherent problems with a piece of gear. Not picking on MikeL but I just can't fathom buying a tonearm for $16.5K only to decide that a $5K sapphire plate is now needed to remove the distortion which I never heard in the first place. If a revealing system does this (not trying to be a wise a$$ now) then I'm really confused.

it's an upgrade.

you are the only one who is using the term 'needing'.....as if not choosing the upgrade somehow invalidates the original product.

not sure why you are confused.

if Valdimir offered an upgrade to your amps, that might result in a small but noticable improvement, would that invalidate your stock amps? would you 'need' to do it?

when you upgraded from X-2's to X-2 Series 2 did that invalidate the original X-2's. the X-2 was already expensive.

what's the difference?

how is this upgrade more or less valid than other one's? it comes down to the owner of the product deciding to do it or not.

 

[MylesBAstor]

What I fail to understand is how only high end systems that are revealing enough can make evident the inherent problems with a piece of gear. Not picking on MikeL but I just can't fathom buying a tonearm for $16.5K only to decide that a $5K sapphire plate is now needed to remove the distortion which I never heard in the first place. If a revealing system does this (not trying to be a wise a$$ now) then I'm really confused.

Steve, don't you own the PD? How many software upgrades has Andreas done?

 

[MylesBAstor]

I went ,I saw, I heard. Believe what you want but the Vertere is for real.

1. The pictures don't do it justice,
2. Everyone should spend a half hour with Taj to understand what went into the design process. Nothing is off the shelf and the Vertere is a unique solution to improving the cartridge's groove tracing.
3. I only wish Gary had the exact same cartridges in the two arms. All I know is that the Vertere brought out musical textures, quietness, resolution and musicality that I've rarely experienced in other arms. All I know is that we must have spent over an hour listening to my LPs -ranging from Sonny to Shakey Jake to Roshomon to Mallets, Melody and Mayhem to George Benson-and no one wanted to stop.
4. I'm sure that Taj is eventually going to ID the most critical parts of the design and come up with a less expensive version.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Oh and I should add that this arm is not going to bowl you over at first listen. But the more you listen, the more you recognize what the Vertere does right. Definitely not hi-fi-ish.

 

[mep]

I went ,I saw, I heard. Believe what you want but the Vertere is for real.

1. The pictures don't do it justice,
2. Everyone should spend a half hour with Taj to understand what went into the design process. Nothing is off the shelf and the Vertere is a unique solution to improving the cartridge's groove tracing.
3. I only wish Gary had the exact same cartridges in the two arms. All I know is that the Vertere brought out musical textures, quietness, resolution and musicality that I've rarely experienced in other arms. All I know is that we must have spent over an hour listening to my LPs -ranging from Sonny to Shakey Jake to Roshomon to Mallets, Melody and Mayhem to George Benson-and no one wanted to stop.
4. I'm sure that Taj is eventually going to ID the most critical parts of the design and come up with a less expensive version.

Myles-How much was the arm and how much was the table contributing to the sound? As for software updates, aren't they free?

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Oh and I should add that this arm is not going to bowl you over at first listen. But the more you listen, the more you recognize what the Vertere does right. Definitely not hi-fi-ish.

to the degree that you were able to determine with different cartridges, how did it compare to the Graham?

 

[microstrip]

I went ,I saw, I heard. Believe what you want but the Vertere is for real.
(...)
Oh and I should add that this arm is not going to bowl you over at first listen. But the more you listen, the more you recognize what the Vertere does right. Definitely not hi-fi-ish.

Myles,
Are you looking for a good excuse to spend the night gambling in a Vegas casino?

 

[Bruce B]

Steve, don't you own the PD? How many software upgrades has Andreas done?

I only did one "free" upgrade and that was to use the USB-X

 

[PeterA]

Was the Graham arm on the table the 12" Phantom or the new "Elite"? I too am curious about how much of the sound can be attributed to the arm and how much to the TechDas turntable.

There seems to be an interest in developing better arms. Just recently SME released the V-12, Graham has the Elite and TriPlanar has a new 12" arm.

 

[garylkoh]

I went ,I saw, I heard. Believe what you want but the Vertere is for real.

1. The pictures don't do it justice,
2. Everyone should spend a half hour with Taj to understand what went into the design process. Nothing is off the shelf and the Vertere is a unique solution to improving the cartridge's groove tracing.
3. I only wish Gary had the exact same cartridges in the two arms. All I know is that the Vertere brought out musical textures, quietness, resolution and musicality that I've rarely experienced in other arms. All I know is that we must have spent over an hour listening to my LPs -ranging from Sonny to Shakey Jake to Roshomon to Mallets, Melody and Mayhem to George Benson-and no one wanted to stop.
4. I'm sure that Taj is eventually going to ID the most critical parts of the design and come up with a less expensive version.

Myles, thanks for coming around and sharing your music. I've already started hunting for some of those albums. Grabbed Sonny meets Hawk NM RCA already. I'll pick up the re-issue too!!

The designer of the tonearm is Touraj - I think that you should now know more about the tonearm than I do

 

[garylkoh]

Was the Graham arm on the table the 12" Phantom or the new "Elite"? I too am curious about how much of the sound can be attributed to the arm and how much to the TechDas turntable.

There seems to be an interest in developing better arms. Just recently SME released the V-12, Graham has the Elite and TriPlanar has a new 12" arm.

The Graham arm on the table was the 12" Phantom. Both tonearm designers - Touraj and Bob - were still working on their respective tonearms up to the day the show started. Touraj was still screwing the arm together, and unfortunately Bob only managed to make one Elite for his own room and wasn't able to make a second one for my room.

As both arms were mounted to the same table, I would attribute most of the sound to the arms. The two cartridges I used are more similar than different. They are both my own cartridges - heavily modified Magic Diamond and heavily modified Virus. I tried both cartridges on the Roksan Artemiz on the same turntable in the month before CES during my evaluation phase. Slight differences between the cartridges could be attributed to sample differences if they were the same brand/model of cartridges. But in this case, the difference was in the physical weights of the cartridges.

I ended up with the Virus on the Graham and the Magic Diamond on the Vertere because the Virus was lighter than the Magic Diamond by 4 grams. On the 12-inch tonearm, the Magic Diamond was just a bit too heavy at 22g. I ended up tracking the Virus at 1.83g and the Magic Diamond at 2.09g. SRA on both cartridges was 92 deg. VTF difference was due to the Virus having a slightly shorter cantilever with slightly higher compliance.

Both cartridges have been customized for me to be my reference cartridges. Due to the risk of breakage, I always bring two cartridges with me to shows. This way, they are both interchangeable as far as I am concerned.

 

[TBone]

Why should someone in an audio forum need to call other people audio equipment of silly toys ? Sorry, but IMHO there are some other sensibilities that are more important than the audio based sensibilities.

That's my point.

tb1

 

[MylesBAstor]

The Graham arm on the table was the 12" Phantom. Both tonearm designers - Touraj and Bob - were still working on their respective tonearms up to the day the show started. Touraj was still screwing the arm together, and unfortunately Bob only managed to make one Elite for his own room and wasn't able to make a second one for my room.

As both arms were mounted to the same table, I would attribute most of the sound to the arms. The two cartridges I used are more similar than different. They are both my own cartridges - heavily modified Magic Diamond and heavily modified Virus. I tried both cartridges on the Roksan Artemiz on the same turntable in the month before CES during my evaluation phase. Slight differences between the cartridges could be attributed to sample differences if they were the same brand/model of cartridges. But in this case, the difference was in the physical weights of the cartridges.

I ended up with the Virus on the Graham and the Magic Diamond on the Vertere because the Virus was lighter than the Magic Diamond by 4 grams. On the 12-inch tonearm, the Magic Diamond was just a bit too heavy at 22g. I ended up tracking the Virus at 1.83g and the Magic Diamond at 2.09g. SRA on both cartridges was 92 deg. VTF difference was due to the Virus having a slightly shorter cantilever with slightly higher compliance.

Both cartridges have been customized for me to be my reference cartridges. Due to the risk of breakage, I always bring two cartridges with me to shows. This way, they are both interchangeable as far as I am concerned.

I agree with Gary. It wasn't close with the provisos indicated.