I think many audiophiles are interested to listen to both Wadax vs dCS side by side.
My guess is Wadax Reference DAC is far better than dCS Varese.
dCS Varese short review
- Thread starter craigr
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My guess is Wadax Reference DAC is far better than dCS Varese.
I’m sorry to say that this thread encapsulates almost every negative aspect of high end audio that I think rings true. I could post a list of the most egregious aspects, but I think post #58 by Godofwealth was a thing of beauty and I can’t top it. How many times indeed have we read over-the-top reviews of gear that has its moment in the sun that are forgotten almost as quickly as the ink dries on the page it is written. No sooner do we have the veritable “perfect sound forever” perspective throw in our face, then we witness those key caveats such as “Oh, but you haven’t heard it with the latest 80K worth of cables, which makes everything that was ever said about the product previously null and void”. Yet we love reading the latest glam reviews almost as much as engaging in the perverted act of slowing down on the highway to watch the latest wreck on the other side of the highway as we go past it from the opposite direction. Human behavior is indeed a peculiar thing.
It’s certainly fine to prefer the sound of one DAC to another. It is not a surprise to realize that they all have a sonic signature and so the vanilla, vs strawberry vs chocolate preference approach is a reasonable one as absolutes are hard to come by. I have little interest in debating the merits of some of the fine digital players and DACs out there, but I am stupefied that after 180 posts in which the gauntlet has been thrown down to compare say the Varese system with the Wadax system appears to ignore the only thing I really care about, which is not how one system compares to another, but how it sounds compared to real music. Really, not one taker? That is what interests me but alas, nobody mentions this aspect at all. What’s next? Surely it can’t be too far away that somebody going to post video compares on their iPhone for each of these DACs and make some ridiculous comparative comment that they believe will be considered meaningful or relevant. I can hardly wait.
I admit I have never been a fan of DCS sound previously (I have not heard the Varese although it would be fun to do so) and always gravitated to other brands. But I certainly do remember being inundated with promises with every new model that the newest model now eliminates the liabilities of all previous models as sanctified by the same tired reviews by the same reviewers as far back as I can recall. As far as Wadax (please save your hostile emails) when I first heard the Wadax system, I thought it sounded, well, just plain wrong. And yes, I’ve heard the latest iteration with the ultimo cabling several times. My thought was that it truncates high frequency harmonics and has poor semblance to what I think a piano or a violin sounds like in any venue. Honestly, and this may seem somewhat strange, but it reminds me both sonically and in the way it was received by a glowing press, similarly to the way the first Levinson LNP-2 preamplifier was welcomed by professionals and consumers alike when it first appeared over 50 years ago. But does anyone still use on today? There’s a reason for that. The Wadax is a fine sounding unit, with low distortion and good musicality. But it just doesn’t float my boat because it doesn’t render the timbre of authentic instruments to me. Sorry, it just doesn’t. (In a system where I use a SS preamp (Solution 727) and amp (Gryphon Mephisto monoblocs), my system benefits from using a tubed DAC (Lampizator H360 ) in order to capture what I find musically compelling sound reproduction. By no means do I wish to imply that a tubed Lampi is a better DAC than either the DCS Varese or the Wadax, but only that I preferred it sonically because again, for me the comparator is real music. Is it the famous Dave Wilson adage "you have to have a tube in there somnewhere" rearing its head? No clue, and frankly I don't care- but it works for me. (YMMV is almost too obvious a statement to make but it is required). I do indeed hope both DCS and Wadax live long and prosper as its good for the industry, but they’ll do it with me on the sidelines for now. Nevertheless, how these DACs perform when reproducing real music in comparisons against each other, are the comments I hope to hear if indeed head to head DAC comparisons are made.
I was at Carnegie 2 nights ago and am headed back again tonight to hear Nobuyuki Tjujii, a blind pianist who won the Van Cliburn in 2009. What I ‘d really like to know is not what Jacob Heilbrunn or Jon Valin or other professional audio reviewers think of the latest and greatest last quarter-mil plus DACs, but what Nobu thinks as my guess is that he will be less influenced by the sticker price and tell us which one sounds the most like his Steinway! The reproduction of real instruments playing music. That’s the only compare that’s meaningful.
It’s certainly fine to prefer the sound of one DAC to another. It is not a surprise to realize that they all have a sonic signature and so the vanilla, vs strawberry vs chocolate preference approach is a reasonable one as absolutes are hard to come by. I have little interest in debating the merits of some of the fine digital players and DACs out there, but I am stupefied that after 180 posts in which the gauntlet has been thrown down to compare say the Varese system with the Wadax system appears to ignore the only thing I really care about, which is not how one system compares to another, but how it sounds compared to real music. Really, not one taker? That is what interests me but alas, nobody mentions this aspect at all. What’s next? Surely it can’t be too far away that somebody going to post video compares on their iPhone for each of these DACs and make some ridiculous comparative comment that they believe will be considered meaningful or relevant. I can hardly wait.
I admit I have never been a fan of DCS sound previously (I have not heard the Varese although it would be fun to do so) and always gravitated to other brands. But I certainly do remember being inundated with promises with every new model that the newest model now eliminates the liabilities of all previous models as sanctified by the same tired reviews by the same reviewers as far back as I can recall. As far as Wadax (please save your hostile emails) when I first heard the Wadax system, I thought it sounded, well, just plain wrong. And yes, I’ve heard the latest iteration with the ultimo cabling several times. My thought was that it truncates high frequency harmonics and has poor semblance to what I think a piano or a violin sounds like in any venue. Honestly, and this may seem somewhat strange, but it reminds me both sonically and in the way it was received by a glowing press, similarly to the way the first Levinson LNP-2 preamplifier was welcomed by professionals and consumers alike when it first appeared over 50 years ago. But does anyone still use on today? There’s a reason for that. The Wadax is a fine sounding unit, with low distortion and good musicality. But it just doesn’t float my boat because it doesn’t render the timbre of authentic instruments to me. Sorry, it just doesn’t. (In a system where I use a SS preamp (Solution 727) and amp (Gryphon Mephisto monoblocs), my system benefits from using a tubed DAC (Lampizator H360 ) in order to capture what I find musically compelling sound reproduction. By no means do I wish to imply that a tubed Lampi is a better DAC than either the DCS Varese or the Wadax, but only that I preferred it sonically because again, for me the comparator is real music. Is it the famous Dave Wilson adage "you have to have a tube in there somnewhere" rearing its head? No clue, and frankly I don't care- but it works for me. (YMMV is almost too obvious a statement to make but it is required). I do indeed hope both DCS and Wadax live long and prosper as its good for the industry, but they’ll do it with me on the sidelines for now. Nevertheless, how these DACs perform when reproducing real music in comparisons against each other, are the comments I hope to hear if indeed head to head DAC comparisons are made.
I was at Carnegie 2 nights ago and am headed back again tonight to hear Nobuyuki Tjujii, a blind pianist who won the Van Cliburn in 2009. What I ‘d really like to know is not what Jacob Heilbrunn or Jon Valin or other professional audio reviewers think of the latest and greatest last quarter-mil plus DACs, but what Nobu thinks as my guess is that he will be less influenced by the sticker price and tell us which one sounds the most like his Steinway! The reproduction of real instruments playing music. That’s the only compare that’s meaningful.
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Sorry. A Taiko Olympus server feeds the Lampizator H360 DAC using a special purpose XDMI cable
I can assure you that buying a piano is far more dificult than buying a Dac.
Two Steinway (same model) made exactly equal at same time doesn't sound equal.
One Steinway played by two different pianist doesn't sound equal.
One Steinway played by same pianist in different days doesn't sound equal.
What piano sound are you going to get as a reference?
Do you have enought musical knowledge to find these diferences? Because this is accumulative to every instrument and player...
And don't forget different directors, orchestras and theaters.
So, i'm glad to see you enjoy live concerts, me too, but this type of afirmations are a bit prepotent if you want...
From a little years ago, there is an Asian pianist fever.... Lang Lang opened the door...
With all my respect, they have impecable technic but still far away from emotional perspective.
I sent you a very interesting Daniel Baremboin's Master Class to Lang Lang and you'll see and listen diferent worlds only in a few compas of Beethoven Apassionata Sonata.
PD: I've listened both pianist live....
Lang Lang Masterclass by Barenboim
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So yes. We like to talk about DCS vs Wadax, because it is interesting and funny.
Maybe if someone helps Taiko to finish all their Olympus already purchased by dozens of costumers and pending receipt with more than a year's delay, we could include it this comparation....
But anodyse dificult finished was not in the equation when it was launched.
Maybe if someone helps Taiko to finish all their Olympus already purchased by dozens of costumers and pending receipt with more than a year's delay, we could include it this comparation....
But anodyse dificult finished was not in the equation when it was launched.
I agree with a lot of this but I am a bit baffled as I have personally talked a lot both here on the forum and in my Positive Feedback review about quality of female vocals compared to real life. That's real music. I talked about how lifelike certain test tracks (well mastered from good original recordings) sounded. Jacob also talked a bit to this as well.
If you take it a step further and Nobu performs live and you record him live to two track and play it back on the Varese then you really have an interesting experiment. But that is expensive and time consuming to do.
Marty,
That's a very nice post. But, again, "comparison to real" comes down to subjective preference and what sound guys have been acclimated to, which drives the imagination of "real". Unless someone shares exact same taste with someone, which happens rarely, one has to listen for themselves.
PS. you bring up lampizator. I personally find it tonally correct, like "real music", but find it lacking in dynamics - due to its tubed design. So I don't find it realistic on anything but high efficiency and horn speakers
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Yes. It would likely sound much better than an official YouTube recording.
I have yet to hear a stereo that can convey and portray the frisson of a live musical performance. There's something unique and special about being in the presence of an artist that is connected with their heart, soul and humanity and emits, radiates, projects, communicates from that level.
Part of the experience of a performer like Nobuyuki Tsujii is knowing that while he is blind, that is not a limitation for his artistry.
When I heard Tony Bennett a few years ago, his last encore was solo and unamplified. Just Tony singing his heart out for all to witness. My eyes were not dry. I don't get quite the same thing from listening to a stereo. While a stereo can have accurate timbre and dimension to the sound, even project the column of air from a singer's voice .... it is still missing the living breathing, heart beat of a human presence.
A couple weeks ago I attended Yunchan Lim's performance of the Goldberg Variations up in Vancouver BC. There were passages that he played so silently that a hush fell over the audience. You could not only hear the ppp playing, you could sense the quiet blanket the auditorium. That is not what I hear from a stereo - and really don't expect to.
Yes, a stereo can convey some of the ambience of the venue, but some aspects ... not quite. Maybe some day.
Over the years, I have found that (for me) the "comparison" approach can lead to disappointment and unfulfilled expectations. This would then lead to upgrades and tweaks and improvements to narrow the gap of the perceived difference with the expected performance.
So, I don't listen to a stereo solely to determine whether it sounds like real live music. Maybe this disqualifies me from audiophilia. Instead, I listen and then notice how my internal compass and inner world is responding. I think about things like - does this evoke emotions, does it touch my soul, does it allow me to experience my humanity, do I hook up with consciousness more expansive than my own?
I now listen and evaluate how fulfilled, moved, centered, and immersed in the moment of the music I am. When enough of those criteria are satisfied, then I know I will be happy to have the component as part of the equipment.
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Well, just back from listening to a few of my favorite recordings with the dCS Varese - classical recordings from the XXI century. I will not enter the real music pseudo-contest - surely my opinion is conditioned by the way I listen and appreciate classic music, I have been at a few performances of some of the recordings I listened.
The Varese dCS is really a quantum leap compared to all other DACs I have listened. More information and delivered with a freedom from constraints that helped feeling the soundstage in a way I found approaches closer to what I see and listen in a real stage. It is a dCS - it will not embellish music to make it sound artificially agreeable. It was just a first listening, with a still a non burn-in system, but I was really impressed.
The Varese was being paired with the Wilson XVX and D'Agostino's.
The Varese dCS is really a quantum leap compared to all other DACs I have listened. More information and delivered with a freedom from constraints that helped feeling the soundstage in a way I found approaches closer to what I see and listen in a real stage. It is a dCS - it will not embellish music to make it sound artificially agreeable. It was just a first listening, with a still a non burn-in system, but I was really impressed.
The Varese was being paired with the Wilson XVX and D'Agostino's.
Marty,
This comparison to real an individual exercise that can help a lot people assembling their own particular system, but IMO of limited transposition to others. Any one being a concert goer will find that the more enjoyable DAC will sound more "real" to him. In the high-end our fine preference depends essentially on how we train ourselves - what we like to appreciate and what we manage to ignore!
Are you sure? there are plenty of dcs fanboys/ folks who are acclimated to the dcs sound, and will pick any dcs, even rossini, over top wadax.
as an example, North American distributor of avantgarde and former US wadax distributor, prefers to demo dcs with avantgarde, not with wadax
You might ask him/her what the reason is before assuming it has anything to do with quality
. No one on this forum can be so gullible to believe that there aren’t interests at stake besides “audiophile qualities”.
It is a fact that Wadax has monopolized ultra Hi-End Dac market...
They have raised the bar to a level never seen and listened until now...
I'm glad to read Varèse could be at same level.
It is good to all of us.
I'll be even happier to see more brands at this level. At the end, more offer is better to us and push every brand to do better products...
They win, we win... Where is the problem?
They have raised the bar to a level never seen and listened until now...
I'm glad to read Varèse could be at same level.
It is good to all of us.
I'll be even happier to see more brands at this level. At the end, more offer is better to us and push every brand to do better products...
They win, we win... Where is the problem?
The problems are the enormous complexity, the enormous cost, and the practicality/reliability question. This gear is amazingly complex and I personally would not want it in my system for this reason. If there was an issue it , it must be returned to the manufacturer over seas and it could easily be damaged in the shipping etc. There has been enormous improvement in digital playback over the decades but you will never make it sound like vinyl or tubes, and I don't debate that this gear is the best digital solid state playback and sounds the best, IF it performs as billed. What will be the next "ultimate"? Will it be a twenty box DAC? There used to be a cartoonist that poked fun at the high end:
I could just imagine the cartoon: Here is the guy who has bought a twenty box DAC showing it to his wife next to his gargantuan speakers, mega mono amps, etc.,: "Honey, now all I need is by five box CD transport that will be arriving within six months and I'll have music. In the meantime I will turn it on and use my imagination."
You must have a system in the 2 million dollar range and probably a net worth of 50 million to reasonably accommodate gear like this and I would have a real world backup, unless you are an industry expert as most of you are and spend most of your time listening to gear that is not in your home and that you don't own and will never own. I have no issue with this. It's what makes the world go round as long as these facts are understood.
Charles Updated System: Wilson McIntosh Audioquest
Gear on Order: Hi Fi Rose 130RS Network Transport; Samsung internal SSD; Audioquest Wel Signature digital balanced 1-meter IC; Audioquest Diamond 1.5 meter USB cable; HDMI cable 24’ for music videos
Amps: McIntosh: MC3500MKII (2); MC1.25KW (2); MC2.1KW An
Preamp: C-12000 An
Sources: MCD12000 An; MVP881; MVP851; MR87; Marantz 510LV; Lenovo Yoga laptop
Speakers: Wilson Chronosonic XVX
Sub-Woofer: Wilson Thor’s Hammer; Wilson ActivXO Stereo Electronic Crossover
Cables Main System AQ: WEL Signature speaker cables; 24’ balanced IC; balanced 1-meter Dragon IC ; WEL Signature digital, Coffee digital coaxial cables; Diamond optical (2); Diamond USB; Dragon (5 HC, 3 source cords); Thunder & Monsoon power cords
Cables Subwoofer System AQ: Redwood speaker cable; Wolf balanced subwoofer IC; Wind balanced IC to ActivXO; Hurricane HC; Firebird HC; Firebird Source; Dragon HC, power cords
Power Conditioners: AQ Niagara 7000; Niagara 5000 (3); (4) dedicated 20-amp lines.
Isolation: Wilson Pedestals; Bassocontinuo McIntosh Ultra Feet; X-material plinth
Cabinet: Double Custom Woodwork & Design (CWD)
Acoustic Treatments: Room and Echo Tunes
I'm sorry, i don't get your point with so much contradictions and mere speculations..
Updated system is yours?
Updated system is yours?
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that has to do with who is paying for the room. and logistically the Wadax is much more daunting to ship and move.
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