The End Of A 35 Year Journey ---Zellaton -The Reference Ultra Final Frontier

[Rob181]

Plenty of people have scorned watching videos of speakers & judging same based on the reproduced sound.
Not me - the best two I have ever heard - & I've heard plenty - are the Zellaton PE's & Alsyvox Caravaggio.
The reproduction of piano & voice through those two is first class.
I have also heard some sensational horn speakers BUT those have been hand built "one off's".
Lastly there have also been a couple of field coil speakers that standout & I would love the hear the Destination Audio speakers with their field coil options.
For the money - its hard to go past the Zellatons though.

 

[Paul1960]

Kerry

I have been listening to these PE all day today and I’ve been playing all of my demo tracks. I’m sure the set up by Gideon is a huge factor as I’m simply astonished at every track I play because everything sounds truly remarkable. They sound like electrostatic speakers with a bottom end that comes out of no where. The air around strings is dramatic but what really grabs me is the speed and attack in the deep bass. I don’t think I’ve ever heard drums as good as this and piano that sounds like piano. Everything is so top to bottom linear. I’m not detecting any coloration And for those who say a solid state amp is better, i say perhaps, but here’s the caveat……. There is so much headroom now that i find I am actually turning my preamp down by two clicks on the gain control. Nothing is lacking and the sound with these is everything that Gideon promised. I love my electronics and the sound now at lower volumes proves a wild experience. These speakers have been settling in and today seems to be the best sonically since these loaners arrived. More to come……

I think you have made at least a couple of references to the Ultra's sounding like electrostatic speakers as a positive thing. I'm curious in what way they outperform high end electrostatics or how you think electrostatics are lacking?

 

[Steve williams]

Read FJ’ Big Dog posts from a few days ago. He summed it up perfectly. re electrostats

 

[Steve williams]

I think you have made at least a couple of references to the Ultra's sounding like electrostatic speakers as a positive thing. I'm curious in what way they outperform high end electrostatics or how you think electrostatics are lacking?

This is a key important question and I would suggest the following: Ribbons and electrostatics have transparency qualities but always fall short on the power range. Simply no weight behind images. The amazing thing about Zellaton is its ability to have see through qualities but with so much weight and dynamic energy. I commented many time here in this thread that the first two things I noticed about the speaker coming from 35 years of using big Wilsons was the amazing bottom end to these speakers and also the sound stage

I posted yesterday that several members suggested I consider a change in amplification but I found there was absolutely no need as so many times when listening yesterday I had to turn down the gain control two clicks on my preamp. There are 24 gain positions in my preamp . Normally I listen in the 5-6 position when streaming and yesterday I was at the 3 So also when I played tape and vinyl I was reducing the gain as my ears were overloaded

 

[Big Dog RJ]

Read FJ’ Big Dog posts from a few days ago. He summed it up perfectly. re electrostats

Woof!

Also just to add 50cts worth; I'm well aware of the fine SS gear money can buy and are truly top performers, no doubt! Aries Cerat, Solution, CH Precision, Dartzeel, Goldmun, Dan D's designs, Bricasti, Pass Labs, Burmester and Vitus so on... have heard these very makes in various types of system configs driving an array of speakers from ribbon & stat panels, dynamic drivers to multiple tower arrays.They all sound amazing, properly installed and carefully put together, each one offers outstanding performance with their own signatures & attributes.

The other absolute beautiful thing is, being very passionate about tooobs, 99.99% of my listening sessions are way past midnight. In fact, as I'm typing this message listening to the celubrius climes of Ray Brown's Trio, it's now past 1:50am. Tubes have an extraordinary ability to take advantage of their Class A circuits and deliver a full wholesome experience, regardless of volume levels. You can go soft to moderate or loud as you please and still maintain realism. That realism will be found on the recording, if it's there, it will be reproduced. If it's not there, then there's something lacking or it's a mediocre recording. At this level, the limitations are such.

I've personally found those late midnight sessions are superb! Everything is dead quiet, not a whimper, and as the tubes warm up, there's an enveloping affect that's extraordinary. Hence, there's really no need to blast the roof off. Increasing volume doesn't make the presentation any better, it just gets louder and heavier, that's all.

In order to really "enjoy those fine tunes " you don't need to crank things up, and this is the sole reason why I haven't purchased those big beautiful Pass Labs XA series amplifiers yet! I've home trialled the full series (XA30.8, 60.80, 100.8 and 160.8) except the massive XA200.8's. Anyway, in all their glory they were very impressive and I was in awe! However, I noticed they don't do much on low volumes. You need to crank it up and then the performance shifts into several gears like a F1 to a fighter jet, now that's awesome! Look-out Charlie!!!

So, my point is: with tooobs you can listen for endless hours and things don't require high volumes at all. In fact, softer the better! It's all there and the tooons are fine!
The Lamm's Class A bias of 32w may not seem much but if you actually listen to this series, you'll understand why Stevo likes these amplifiers. I have had the pleasure of auditioning Lamm's ML series amplifiers and they're superb! Similarly, my CJ monoblocks are actually 60w Class A- apart from the 150w AB capability if one chooses that route. Most of the time, I'm only getting 5 to 10w of pure love! And these amps are driving CLX's. It's not an easy task and many so called high powered SS amplifiers simply ran out of puff! But not the Pass Labs.

So until such time, enjoy those finest tunes with those finest tubes. SS can wait!
Woof! RJ

 

[LL21]

Woof!

...Tubes have an extraordinary ability to take advantage of their Class A circuits and deliver a full wholesome experience, regardless of volume levels. You can go soft to moderate or loud as you please and still maintain realism. ...

In order to really "enjoy those fine tunes " you don't need to crank things up, and this is the sole reason why I haven't purchased those big beautiful Pass Labs XA series amplifiers yet! I've home trialled the full series (XA30.8, 60.80, 100.8 and 160.8) except the massive XA200.8's. Anyway, in all their glory they were very impressive and I was in awe! However, I noticed they don't do much on low volumes. You need to crank it up and then the performance shifts into several gears like a F1 to a fighter jet, now that's awesome! Look-out Charlie!!!

So, my point is: with tooobs you can listen for endless hours and things don't require high volumes at all. In fact, softer the better! It's all there and the tooons are fine!...
Woof! RJ

I am no techie, so I find your observations interesting. I went from CJ tubes to Gryphon pure Class A (but SS not tubes)...and one thing I did notice was that I was playing the CJ preamp at volume 1 when listening thru the Gryphon with the system. I was quite shocked, but at 3am I could listen and get full breadth of bass power, a soft 'chest punch'...quite remarkable. During the day it could go up several notches (maybe 15?)

Now that the system is all Robert Koda, the gain on the preamp is only 8db, but I still turn the knob no higher than 10:30am in the middle of the day and probably not much more than 8am on the knob late at night. And it technically is designed for playing typically at 12pm on the knob.

Avg listening late at night is 40-45db. Even now on Sat afternoon its 65db listening to club music.

 

[Steve williams]

I tell guests who visit me for a listen that I always listen at realistic levels . I have found that for digital, my gain is typically either at 5 or 6 for the best and most realistic dynamics. Once the Plural Evo speakers were set up Gideon and I found that we were at the 3 spot.. The 1 spot is zero sound so essentially the dynamics and deep bass from the Zellaton PE was so superb that we had to lower the gain accordingly. Bottom line is , of course SS amps can sound wonderful as RJ points out but my ML3 at 32 wpc delivers and never runs out of gas. As RJ has pointed out the sound of Zellaton is like electrostatic with incredible deep bass. This attribute almost certainly comes from all speaker drivers manufactured in house by Zellaton so that the sound produced is uniform, top to bottom

 

[wisnon]

Im a tube guy. It's as simple as that. However when a tube goes down on those amps and takes out a fuse and the speaker sounds like someone is shooting a machine gun, I want to tear the hair out of my head. Yet having said that when listening to these 32 wpc Pure Class A they light up my room. And pair with the rest of the Signature Series (LP1 and LL1) Im a happy camper

LoL.
As long as you are happy, that is what counts.

I do have to nitpick, you said pure class A. Is there impure class A out there? I would love to hear what it sounds like! Hahaha

 

[wisnon]

It's a pretty funny effort when solid state aficionados try to convince tube guys to switch.

I can appreciate great solid state amplification and love to listen to it, but for my own system I remain a tube guy as well.

Let them talk all they want...

Horses for courses. Low power tube amp on 83db dynamic speaker would be "challenging".

 

[Paul1960]

This is a key important question and I would suggest the following: Ribbons and electrostatics have transparency qualities but always fall short on the power range. Simply no weight behind images. The amazing thing about Zellaton is its ability to have see through qualities but with so much weight and dynamic energy. I commented many time here in this thread that the first two things I noticed about the speaker coming from 35 years of using big Wilsons was the amazing bottom end to these speakers and also the sound stage

I posted yesterday that several members suggested I consider a change in amplification but I found there was absolutely no need as so many times when listening yesterday I had to turn down the gain control two clicks on my preamp. There are 24 gain positions in my preamp . Normally I listen in the 5-6 position when streaming and yesterday I was at the 3 So also when I played tape and vinyl I was reducing the gain as my ears were overloaded

Thanks for that explanation. I have the Final Audio M35 electrostatics and they do have that transparency, imaging and the tonal purity that seems to make electrostatics special. The bottom end is quite a bit better than my Magnepan 20.7s but I imagine that continues to be a place where cone based systems excel. One area where they are weaker than higher end systems I've heard is in terms of their attack and transients.

It sounds like the Zellaton's are terrific. I did go to the Zellaton Burmeister room at Pacific Audio Fest and but I don't remember if they had the Emotion Evo or the Plural Evo playing. I do remember the room sounded very nice but I (mis?)attributed that to the very expensive Burmeister electronics.

I think you are in Southern California? I know Final Audio will be exhibiting at T.H.E. Show in Costa Mesa from June 6-8 and I thought Popori was going to be there as well. I wouldn't expect either set of speakers to outperform your Statement Ultra's but it might be interesting for you to hear some state of the art electrostatic speakers. I've never been to this show but I am flying down from Seattle to attend this year.

It is interesting how much our preferences inform what gear we like. I've never heard Lamm's tube amps but a friend did lend me his M2.2s for an extended period and I did not like the sound. Way too much gain for my system and even with levels matched to my normal listening they sounded too loud, perhaps because of that mid-range that most people seem to love but that I felt seemed exaggerated for lack of a better word. It might have just been the huge amount of gain forced me to lower the volume on my ARC Ref 5SE below the levels it was happy at. I had a similar experience with the Plinius SA-103, another amp that many people love which I didn't like. Anyhow, system synergy is everything and it seems like you have achieved audio nirvana with yours. Congratulations.

 

[Steve williams]

LoL.
As long as you are happy, that is what counts.

I do have to nitpick, you said pure class A. Is there impure class A out there? I would love to hear what it sounds like! Hahaha

As opposed to AB Norman

 

[Steve williams]

Horses for courses. Low power tube amp on 83db dynamic speaker would be "challenging".

I wouldn’t buy an 83 db speaker with my electronics Norman You’re grasping at straws IMHO

 

[Steve williams]

think you are in Southern California? I know Final Audio will be exhibiting at T.H.E. Show in Costa Mesa from June 6-8 and I thought Popori was going to be there as well. I wouldn't expect either set of speakers to outperform your Statement Ultra's but it might be interesting for you to hear some state of the art electrostatic speakers. I've never been to this show but I am flying down from Seattle to attend this year.

Hi Paul
I’ve been talking to Ravi at Final Audio for months about his speaker. It’s a very modular speaker and i intend on hearing it at THE Show in June

 

[Steve williams]

I wouldn't expect either set of speakers to outperform your Statement Ultra's but it might be interesting for you to hear some state of the art electrostatic speakers.

Hi Paul. For the record i presently have a pair of Plural Evo here on loan until my Reference Ultra ship ( hopefully next month). The Statement is indeed a Statement but is just too much speaker for my room

 

[wisnon]

To be fully transparent I'm one of the guys who proposed to Steve SS amp option. If you believe that I'm "silly SS aficionado" having entire system for years and years made out of tube components only (mainly DHT) so be it.
But I am in the camp of thought that each speaker type requires a "specific" amp type in order to shine at its best. Placing monster SS amp on 100dB horns won't really cut the chase or SET amp with 300b tubes on panel speakers also won't deliver the goodies both are capable of.
To me same goes for multiple driver dynamic speakers coupled with SET DHT amp. Does it sound fantastic - I have no doubt, could it sound potentially better with big SS amp with proper damping factor etc. - maybe yes maybe no to the ears of the owner.
Again, for the sake of truth - i proposed to Steve to TRY (not BUY) and hear on his own beside his Lamms only power amp while not changing the pre as tube pre in my book is essential, to see what two conceptually different type of power amps are bringing to the table - nothing more nothing less.
For example - Gideon having Soulution in his portfolio I'm sure he would be willing to loan one for a demo for a big customer as Steve is.

Anyways if Steve is happy with as is electronics, I'm happy and that is it.

P.S. Not sure I've seen Zellaton going around the shows (like Munich) demoing their stuff with SET amps...but I've seen them doing it with big monster SS amps - guess there must be a reason for that...

Zell used to show with CH Precision back in the day. I can imagine a CHP M1 on those speakers. People used to say that it was a like a triode with mega power. LoL

 

[wisnon]

I wouldn’t buy an 83 db speaker with my electronics Norman You’re grasping at straws IMHO

The comment was a general one, not aimed at you Steve. I wanted to exaggerate to illustrate a point. You have 92 db speakers, so not an issue. In that range, there is quite a bit of amp flexibility

 

[wisnon]

As opposed to AB Norman

LoL, you get the joke though, right?

 

[wisnon]

I tell guests who visit me for a listen that I always listen at realistic levels . I have found that for digital, my gain is typically either at 5 or 6 for the best and most realistic dynamics. Once the Plural Evo speakers were set up Gideon and I found that we were at the 3 spot.. The 1 spot is zero sound so essentially the dynamics and deep bass from the Zellaton PE was so superb that we had to lower the gain accordingly. Bottom line is , of course SS amps can sound wonderful as RJ points out but my ML3 at 32 wpc delivers and never runs out of gas. As RJ has pointed out the sound of Zellaton is like electrostatic with incredible deep bass. This attribute almost certainly comes from all speaker drivers manufactured in house by Zellaton so that the sound produced is uniform, top to bottom

Goebel and Zellaton are very fine speakers and currently gaining in popularity.

 

[wisnon]

Hi Paul. For the record i presently have a pair of Plural Evo here on loan until my Reference Ultra ship ( hopefully next month). The Statement is indeed a Statement but is just too much speaker for my room

I think those are 93db, so a tad more efficient still.

 

[Alrainbow]

Steve what was the setup in NYC you heard ?
Not a trick question