Hint of new Magico products

[Steve Williams]

I think it's a real shame that some magico guys do not realize that their preferred sonic signature is not the best, but just a preference, and one of many to choose from in the free market.

whenever I evaluate a new piece of equipment that I am considering for purchase after a lengthy evaluation I always ask myself the following questions
1. Did I hear something better or did I hear something different

2. If I hear something better I ask myself, "what did I hear better"

I find that by trying to keeping this perspective on buying I can keep my purchases as an upward development rather than just a lateral change. I do understand the point that Caesar is trying to establish re preference and why

 

[cannata]

Here is a nrc graph of a brand that is sometimes forgotten here also a very neutral speaker , this is a bass reflex design one could argue which is more accurate the slight couple db elevation of the C 4 or the opposite of the S 5 under 200 hz , they share about the same - 3 db point at 20 hz , so alll this talk about inaccurate bassreflex designs obviously comes from another factor then FR response imo

http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/dynaudio_confidence_c4/

The port on these is tuned so low that I am not sure how effective it is in supporting the bass. But you are right, there is more to the story then frq response, look at what the port (the green curve on fig 3) dose in the midrange region (http://www.stereophile.com/content/dynaudio-confidence-c4-loudspeaker-measurements). Just one more reason ports are problematic.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

about 2 years ago a person had the audacity to trade in his Q7's for EA MM7's. this person preferred the 'sonic viewpoint' of entry level EA speakers (he already owned) in direct side by side comparison. he liked it better; he preferred it. which led him to do the trade.

this was at the same general time that Harley (among others) had anointed the Q7's the world's best.

what followed was a swelling of indignation, mud slinging, and much worse from the Magico Nation. they did everything possible to caste dispersions on the credibility of their customer, the guy who bought the Q7's but then wanted to trade them.

EA was not totally blameless in the equation in the way the Q7 trades were marketed. I happened to be caught in the crossfire (as a prominent EA owner) and was subject to character assassinations across many public forums.

I've never seen anything like it.

a guy just wanted to own different speakers.

maybe Caesar gets a little carried away with his Magico bashing. but also Caesar knows he has some interested playmates for his fun as the Magico folks always have their pistols loaded. not that many brands don't have loyal followers who can get a bit defensive, but Magico takes it to another level.

 

[PeterA]

Peter,

I am not disagreeing with you. My only point is that at the end, whether an individual is selecting speakers or making any other decision, all rational arguments go away and people go with their gut (because that part of the brain has been around a lot longer than the rational part.

caesar, do you think that speaker designers "go with their gut" when making decisions and that "all rational arguments go away"?

 

[cannata]

maybe Caesar gets a little carried away with his Magico bashing. but also Caesar knows he has some interested playmates for his fun as the Magico folks always have their pistols loaded. not that many brands don't have loyal followers who can get a bit defensive, but Magico takes it to another level.

Really? Funny, I was under the impression that WBF undertone is actually quite hostile to Magico. In fact, I have never seen posting such as Caesar posts going on anywhere without a moderator intervention. I don’t really mind, but why all the whining? This is the Magico thread, you are going to come here and chop wood, chips will fly. It is a bit cowardly to instigate reaction, and then complain when it is coming.

 

[Steve Williams]

Really? Funny, I was under the impression that WBF undertone is actually quite hostile to Magico. In fact, I have never seen posting such as Caesar posts going on anywhere without a moderator intervention. I don’t really mind, but why all the whining? This is the Magico thread, you are going to come here and chop wood, chips will fly. It is a bit cowardly to instigate reaction, and then complain when it is coming.

Really

I think that comment is somewhat laughable

Last I looked I created a Magico Owners'Circle for owners to post thoughts about their system

To date there are only 2 members who have added comments about their speakers.

Further FWIW, Magico is the most searched and viewed topic here at WBF, so much so that it was moved to the top of the Manufacturers section . For me now you are blowing nothing more than hot air.

I also find interesting that there are more Magico owners here than probably any other speaker manufacturer and yet but 2 have posted pictures or a synopsis of their systems

 

[PeterA]

the Magico folks always have their pistols loaded. not that many brands don't have loyal followers who can get a bit defensive, but Magico takes it to another level.

To turn down the heat on this thread, I thought I would post this video of the speakers that got the whole thing going ten years ago. How I recently spent a cold Winter night:

[video]https://plus.google.com/u/0/105148578245263183488/posts/HJdssKhwKbf?pid=6118728792926949154&oid=105148578245263183488[/video]

 

[caesar]

caesar, do you think that speaker designers "go with their gut" when making decisions and that "all rational arguments go away"?

Peter,

It's a very interesting question. I honestly don't know these guys. Obviously every speaker has to adhere to the principle stated by the Bacon quote:"...Nature to be commanded must be obeyed...". But design is not based on pure science. Every designer has to take into account:

- usability/ practicality of room real estate (big difference in usability in a monitor vs magico horn, or the big Scaena with airplane engine sized subs)
- cost (other than the highest priced model in the line up, there are usually compromises)
- aesthetics (I wonder how many people are subconsciously turned off by Vivid giya, or the nola set of seemingly disparate set of drivers / shapes in their semi open enclosure
- material availability (aluminum for some guys, diamond woofers?)
- manufacturing capabilities
- marketing (I think we talked about that enough for now)

Add to that, brands are co-created by marketers, reviewers, fans, and users of the product. Many brands change over the years.. Some designs may change to meet the market desire (magico s class?), while in other cases it may be the "designer knows best". ...

Surveying some more popular designs, It seems - and I could be very wrong - David Wilson travels to Vienna and tries to voice his speakers like live music. ditto for jurgen reis. ditto for genesis, evolution acoustics, and scaena .. not sure about Wolf, but per DaveyF thread he thinks he got the music right (and I'm sure the other guys have egos just as big and wouldn't release a speaker that was not their best at that moment , per the constraints. Andrew Jones may be more pure engineering based, and likewise, with Dick Dickey of Vivid.

I wonder how Beethoven interacted (and iterated) with his harpsichord designers...

Just some initial thoughts, as my kids are yelling at me and interrupting. If i think of more stuff, I'll chime in.

 

[cannata]

Really

I think that comment is somewhat laughable

Last I looked I created a Magico Owners'Circle for owners to post thoughts about their system

To date there are only 2 members who have added comments about their speakers.

Further FWIW, Magico is the most searched and viewed topic here at WBF, so much so that it was moved to the top of the Manufacturers section . For me now you are blowing nothing more than hot air.

I also find interesting that there are more Magico owners here than probably any other speaker manufacturer and yet but 2 have posted pictures or a synopsis of their systems

Thank you for your comment Steve, I expected it, so let me explain. I am not criticizing the site, I am perfectly fine in a slightly hostile, lightly moderated, forum. Keep up the good work.

 

[caesar]

Really? Funny, I was under the impression that WBF undertone is actually quite hostile to Magico. In fact, I have never seen posting such as Caesar posts going on anywhere without a moderator intervention. I don’t really mind, but why all the whining? This is the Magico thread, you are going to come here and chop wood, chips will fly. It is a bit cowardly to instigate reaction, and then complain when it is coming.

Cannata,

I have not once entered the magico circle portion of the site. the rest is a discussion forum...

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Really? Funny, I was under the impression that WBF undertone is actually quite hostile to Magico.

I think any perception of attitude is based on getting reflected back what is projected.

and Magico's less than middle of the road tonal character and presentation does cause extreme reactions on both sides.

kind of a chicken and egg situation.

personally I can appreciate Magico's viewpoint on the music and what people love about them; it's just not my first choice based on what I've heard so far.

 

[PeterA]

and Magico's less than middle of the road tonal character and presentation does cause extreme reactions on both sides.

Mike, could you be a little bit more specific about Magico's tonal character? What do you mean by "less than middle of the road.."? Thanks.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Mike, could you be a little bit more specific about Magico's tonal character? What do you mean by "less than middle of the road.."? Thanks.

there is what you hear personally.

my personal experience at shows with the Magico Mini, Mini II, Q3, Q5, and Q7 over a number of years has left me with the impression of Magico leaning toward the cool side of neutral with articulate but less than full bodied bass.....and very detailed. again; these are likely more than a dozen sessions over years....maybe 20. the Magico S series is 'different' and more middle of the road as far as presentation and balance.

most of those sessions were with digital sources, but many had vinyl and tape too.

maybe in a mature system environment my perceptions overall of the Magico Q series could be different.

I've not heard the new 'M'. from the feedback it would likely come closer to my ideal.

as I wrote I can see what there is to appreciate in the Mini and Q series. remarkable in many ways.

then there is what you read in reviews and forums.....which we all read.

 

[Steve Williams]

Cannata

Perhaps I missed your point but honestly I don't feel the same as you. Every speaker is not the "perfect:" speaker for everyone. Why people react with their gut remains beyond me. There are those such as Caesar who does push the button but honestly if there are so many Magico owners here, I bet all of your systems are superb. There is strength in numbers and I bet that if you owners put up descriptions of your systems, why you did what you did, what you auditioned on your short list etc etc it would garner support for your thoughts. All of us love photos and descriptions and there are places in which you can do this with no threat from others...

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/forumdisplay.php?247-Members-Gallery

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/forumdisplay.php?346-Magico-Audio-Owners-Circle

 

[andromedaaudio]

The port on these is tuned so low that I am not sure how effective it is in supporting the bass. But you are right, there is more to the story then frq response, look at what the port (the green curve on fig 3) dose in the midrange region (http://www.stereophile.com/content/dynaudio-confidence-c4-loudspeaker-measurements). Just one more reason ports are problematic.

JA sums the nearfield outputs there is a difference in the way JA measures as compared to the NRC anechoic measurements(see link in my post ) , presumably we are talking about the same Dynaudio C4 version here

 

[caesar]

there is what you hear personally.

my personal experience at shows with the Magico Mini, Mini II, Q3, Q5, and Q7 over a number of years has left me with the impression of Magico leaning toward the cool side of neutral with articulate but less than full bodied bass.....and very detailed. again; these are likely more than a dozen sessions over years....maybe 20. the Magico S series is 'different' and more middle of the road as far as presentation and balance.

most of those sessions were with digital sources, but many had vinyl and tape too.

maybe in a mature system environment my perceptions overall of the Magico Q series could be different.

I've not heard the new 'M'. from the feedback it would likely come closer to my ideal.

as I wrote I can see what there is to appreciate in the Mini and Q series. remarkable in many ways.

then there is what you read in reviews and forums.....which we all read.

Mike,

That is a very gracious statement toward the Magico crowd. But I don't' expect them to reciprocate. The impression you get is they listen to the greatest thing in the world and everyone listens to badly engineered dreck. They attacked Valin out of all people! I wonder if we will see his Stalin-type show trial confession, but they are sure demanding it.

 

[KeithR]

I don't find the bass lacking per se, no. There's a difference in tonal balance compared to my S5's where I can often feel (perceive) that there is less bass than my S5's. I felt the same way when I first got my S5's compared to my Wilson Alexias. The M-Project is closer to the Q series than the S. I say 'closer' because stereo feels there is more overhang on the M-Project than the Q series and I trust him (I haven't heard a Q in a long time and never in my own home).

Of course, being closer to a Q is a good thing in terms of overall quality. But boy can it be brutally honest on a lot of material and perhaps not all that satisfying with rock music. I guess I'm saying that I find the speakers on the bright side of neutral - at least in my room and to my ears. I have had a bit of a history struggling with treble forwardness. I'm trying to 'voice' the speakers (through placement, power & signal cables) to tone down the upper mids. For all I know I have a bit of a suckout of midrange in my room that exasperates this problem.

I think the Q series is a lot like studio 'monitors' where they are very adept at letting you hear into the recording, but perhaps not as strong at suspending disbelief of having the instruments in front of you.

I hope you are able to ice down the sound, MadFloyd. Certainly at this level, everything will make a big change as the speakers are so transparent. I wonder if a tube preamp would be helpful- perhaps you can borrow one.

 

[MadFloyd]

I hope you are able to ice down the sound, MadFloyd. Certainly at this level, everything will make a big change as the speakers are so transparent. I wonder if a tube preamp would be helpful- perhaps you can borrow one.

Thank you, Keith. I did try my Doshi preamp and it didn't solve the issue. Either that means the preamp isn't the culprit or both preamps aren't up to the task. I continue to do a lot of experimenting and I have new cables on the way to audition. I am pretty sure I will get them sounding good soon as every change in the chain is very audible.

I wonder if I'm the only Magico owner who isn't upset when someone suggests that they aren't the perfect speaker? I really enjoy caesar's posts and feel like he's pretty fair in his comments. Speaker preference truly is a personal thing.

 

[ack]

Thank you, Keith. I did try my Doshi preamp and it didn't solve the issue. Either that means the preamp isn't the culprit or both preamps aren't up to the task. I continue to do a lot of experimenting and I have new cables on the way to audition. I am pretty sure I will get them sounding good soon as every change in the chain is very audible.

I wonder if I'm the only Magico owner who isn't upset when someone suggests that they aren't the perfect speaker? I really enjoy caesar's posts and feel like he's pretty fair in his comments. Speaker preference truly is a personal thing.

Yeah, they are horrible speakers, caesar is right, and you should sell yours to me.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Madfloyd , before you go and spend money on cables or other amps , i d suggest you contact magico about it , they are able to customize the FR for you quit easily , by just changing component values in the X over .
They have balanced the speaker as they think is right , another thing you could do is try MIT or transparent cables as far as i know their cables work as low pass filters , they might tune the balance less bright as well , you re " problem" is easily measurable , flat to 20 kHz (or beyond ) can sound to bright to many people
I was discussing this with LL 21 , lloyd as well it is well documented that people prefer a +- 3 db downwards slope from the low freqs down to the highs