Hint of new Magico products

[PeterA]

The king of passive aggressive

I actually had the Q3, in my house for about a week (I own an S5). I hate to break it to you but when it comes to bass, the main difference between them was the quality of the bass, and not the quantity. In fact, the balance was quite similar. Some may mistake the overhang character of the S bass to a “fuller” bass, but it is simply "looser" sounding (it does go lower, however, which is nice). Once you “get” the sound of the Q3 bass, there is no question which is better, and I can assure you, you will agree with me as well You simply need to educate yourself on the differences. It may take you more than just casual listening at shows.

Cannata, I agree with your observations. I have heard both speakers in the same setting, though on different days and unfortunately not in my own system, but what you describe is how I heard the differences also. The Q3 has three (3) 7" woofers while the S5 has two (2) 10" woofers. They are voiced slightly differently, built to a different level and aimed at different customers. Both are excellent speakers, IMO.

 

[caesar]

The king of passive aggressive

I actually had the Q3, in my house for about a week (I own an S5). I hate to break it to you but when it comes to bass, the main difference between them was the quality of the bass, and not the quantity. In fact, the balance was quite similar. Some may mistake the overhang character of the S bass to a “fuller” bass, but it is simply "looser" sounding (it does go lower, however, which is nice). Once you “get” the sound of the Q3 bass, there is no question which is better, and I can assure you, you will agree with me as well You simply need to educate yourself on the differences. It may take you more than just casual listening at shows.

Cannata,

Thanks for selectively quoting me. And thanks for the personal attack. Do you also lash out at people who have a difference of opinion on colors of fabrics, styles of architecture, preference of sexual positions, etc.? I hate to break it to you, but in life some people like to think and choose for themselves instead of being told by the elites or by the hoard what is best.

I think you missed another thread here on the site, but you should check this out:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/ho...lMarketing&utm_campaign=LinkPreview:1:Default

 

[caesar]

Cannata, I agree with your observations. I have heard both speakers in the same setting, though on different days and unfortunately not in my own system, but what you describe is how I heard the differences also. The Q3 has three (3) 7" woofers while the S5 has two (2) 10" woofers. They are voiced slightly differently, built to a different level and aimed at different customers. Both are excellent speakers, IMO.

Peter,

Here's the question: are the 2 speakers voiced differently on purpose, to appeal to 2 different markets, which is a brilliant marketing move, or are they voiced differently as just "accidents of design" and trying to hit a specific budget?

My thought is that both speakers are voiced. The Q class is voiced per wolf taste, and the S class is voiced for those not fond of the "transparency to source" sound (and to hit a price point to bring a steady cash flow to the company).

 

[FrantzM]

Peter,

Here's the question: are the 2 speakers voiced differently on purpose, to appeal to 2 different markets, which is a brilliant marketing move, or are they voiced differently as just "accidents of design" and trying to hit a specific budget?

My thought is that both speakers are voiced. The Q class is voiced per wolf taste, and the S class is voiced for those not fond of the "transparency to source" sound (and to hit a price point to bring a steady cash flow to the company).

But your favorite speakers are not "voiced"? They just sound like the signal?

Come on man! You are burying yourself here. Just say you do't like the sound of Magico and we will be all right but your attempt to rationalize your opinions is disingenuous

 

[PeterA]

Cannata,

Thanks for selectively quoting me. And thanks for the personal attack. Do you also lash out at people who have a difference of opinion on colors of fabrics, styles of architecture, preference of sexual positions, etc.? I hate to break it to you, but in life some people like to think and choose for themselves instead of being told by the elites or by the hoard what is best.

I think you missed another thread here on the site, but you should check this out:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/ho...lMarketing&utm_campaign=LinkPreview:1:Default

I read a review by Valin of the elite media and became interested in the magico mini. I then went out and listened to it for myself and formed my own opinion about what it sounds like. I liked it so I bought a pair. Are you contending that I just followed the herd mentality in this process?

 

[stereo]

What does this comment have to do with CES 2015?

I was in the room at CES 2015 during the visit and you can check your "sources" to verify. I talked with Alon and others extensively about the M-Project drivers and the Q7mKII coming updates. We spent at LEAST 1 hour in the room and listened in the main seats.

I'm not commenting on the sound because that's a listener preference but the text written above leaves me scratching my head...

not sure I understand your post. I never talked about CES 2015 for the simple reason I didn't attend. I just commented on my experience at Munich show 2 years ago, to illustrate how Valin is making judgement on speakers. You can check in archives how he commented on the show

 

[cannata]

...Are you contending that I just followed the herd mentality in this process?

This is precisely what he is saying, for quite sometime now…
But don’t take it personally, you are part of herd, remember?

 

[stereo]

I actually had the Q3, in my house for about a week (I own an S5). I hate to break it to you but when it comes to bass, the main difference between them was the quality of the bass, and not the quantity. In fact, the balance was quite similar. Some may mistake the overhang character of the S bass to a “fuller” bass, but it is simply "looser" sounding (it does go lower, however, which is nice). Once you “get” the sound of the Q3 bass, there is no question which is better, and I can assure you, you will agree with me as well You simply need to educate yourself on the differences. It may take you more than just casual listening at shows.

+1

 

[DaveyF]

A couple of years ago, at the Newport show, I had a conversation with AW about the differences between the Q3 and his then new S5. AW commented that the Q3 was for the more "astute" a'phile, while the S5 was for the a'phile who wanted a lower priced and more accessible speaker. As I recall,AW felt that the bass in the Q3 was more accurate and therefore would have less appeal to the average consumer. He clearly stated that his Q line was the more upscale. OTOH, he was quite excited about the new S5 at the time....BUT making it clear to me it was his entry level line.

 

[Dre_J]

not sure I understand your post. I never talked about CES 2015 for the simple reason I didn't attend. I just commented on my experience at Munich show 2 years ago, to illustrate how Valin is making judgement on speakers. You can check in archives how he commented on the show

It seemed fair to point out a different perspective since the recent posts surrounding your comments were related to CES 2015. I wanted to make sure that an actual perspective of the CES visit was shared to counter those comments of yours about Munich.

Let’s look at Munich 2012 for a moment...

Per your request, I reviewed the archive of the Munich show report and I didn’t see anything wrong with the comments about the speakers. What bothered you so much about them?

Some additional things I observed about the Munich write-up:
1) The sound of the Munich demo was contrasted with CES 2012 of that year a few months before when the Q7s were mentioned as sounding better. This appears to add contrast to what was heard at Munich. 2) It appears the demo was off-site and not at the actual Hi-End show. 3) There seems to be some speculation about the equipment pairing contributing to the perceived sound.

 

[Frank750]

Coincidentally, I am finding that my own observations of the Magico M-Project seem to match what caesar describes as "thinner bass, spotlighting of the upper midrange/lower treble".

I am also a big fan of JV's writing. That man can has an uncanny way of eloquently describing how something sounds.

OK, I gotta ask since no one else has, are you finding the bass to be lacking on your M-Project or am I misunderstanding your comment?

 

[MadFloyd]

OK, I gotta ask since no one else has, are you finding the bass to be lacking on your M-Project or am I misunderstanding your comment?

I don't find the bass lacking per se, no. There's a difference in tonal balance compared to my S5's where I can often feel (perceive) that there is less bass than my S5's. I felt the same way when I first got my S5's compared to my Wilson Alexias. The M-Project is closer to the Q series than the S. I say 'closer' because stereo feels there is more overhang on the M-Project than the Q series and I trust him (I haven't heard a Q in a long time and never in my own home).

Of course, being closer to a Q is a good thing in terms of overall quality. But boy can it be brutally honest on a lot of material and perhaps not all that satisfying with rock music. I guess I'm saying that I find the speakers on the bright side of neutral - at least in my room and to my ears. I have had a bit of a history struggling with treble forwardness. I'm trying to 'voice' the speakers (through placement, power & signal cables) to tone down the upper mids. For all I know I have a bit of a suckout of midrange in my room that exasperates this problem.

I think the Q series is a lot like studio 'monitors' where they are very adept at letting you hear into the recording, but perhaps not as strong at suspending disbelief of having the instruments in front of you.

 

[caesar]

But your favorite speakers are not "voiced"? They just sound like the signal?

Come on man! You are burying yourself here. Just say you do't like the sound of Magico and we will be all right but your attempt to rationalize your opinions is disingenuous

Frantz,

I think you have me confused with the Magico guys. I believe Everything is voiced. Even for the most hardcore engineers with a tin ear do about 10-15% of tweaking of their designs. But Magico guys think the sound of the speaker is the sound of God. In reality, it’s the job of the designer to design gear that is aesthetically pleasing, enjoyable, exciting, and functional - and voice things to sound like music! Not everyone finds a 58 year-old woman exciting in a sexually confident role. Instead most get excited over a 24 year old doing that flick. Personally I don’t care about the underlying technology one bit - even if it’s gerbils and mice having a good time, as long as they make great music and put you in a state of internal bliss.

I already told you that I don’t like the Q class. I explain why and characterize their sonic signature and I get attacked by the Magico mafia because I don’t share their taste. Even Valin, who should be thanked by all the Magico fans for exposing the brand to a wider audience, gets put down for expressing his opinion.

Speaker taste is no different than going to a restaurant and enjoying a meal or biting into a piece of food and automatically having your lips pucker, while your stomach muscles are contracting. It’s also very similar to selecting a church or a synagogue - in the free market of thousands of available religious institutions. In the end, it about whether it makes you feel good or not. The subconscious part of the brain evolved much earlier than the conscious part.

And for those who still don’t think that Authorities influence purchasing choices, are choosing blindness over seeing reality as it really is. Why would wolf swallow his pride and invite valin, not Harley, to review his $600K horn speaker after valin dumped magico for estelon and raidho? If he is honest with himself and didn’t repress it, it probably hurt A LOT, yet he did it anyways… Why are Albert von Schweikert and Mark Levinson virtually begging Valin in his blog to review their speakers? And why was it virtually impossible to hear, let alone audition in one’s own system, the $16k Berkeley dac after the Harley review, with a 3-4 month backlog? If it were valin or fremer, it would probably be a whole year backup. All guys decide by using their own ears. Riiiight!!!… Likewise denying the existence of the concept of social proof in this hobby that makes brands more successful is a rejection of reality.

Always a ball of fun interacting with the Magico fans. Quite an interesting, entertaining and (surprisingly) emotional group, indeed, considering that the brand promise rests on "rationality". Great comic relief from some of my boring projects.

 

[XV-1]

If you are interested in reading about human influence techniques, I would recommend the work of Robert Cialidini, the godfather of the field. He has a very popular book called Influence. He devotes a chapter to each scientifically proven technique in his book, but here are some examples (very briefly):
- reciprocity - People tend to return a favor, kind of like a dealer loaning items to you, and then you buying something from him in return
- social proof - in moments of confusion, people do what others around them are doing. Like guys buying a popular piece of gear, because they are not sure, but their friends and guys on forums have it. Then they can talk about it, and further connect with others...That's why blockbusters are so popular (movies and audio brands)
- commitment and consistency - once people take an action, it becomes a part of their identity and they keep consistently taking on the action
- liking - we are influenced by those people we like, so be careful of friendly, likable sales guys
- authority - when confused, people look to figures of authority to help decide for them
- scarcity - when something is rarely available, it must be good; those darn limited production runs in high end audio...

When used in combination, they are much more potent than on an individual basis

Ha ha. Very true. Hard to stay away from those human tendencies we all possess.

 

[vassago]

Or maybe this would:
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...at-relieves-it&p=306074&viewfull=1#post306074

Valin, after all has been listening to Raidho, and has said that with exception of MBL, it may be the best tweeter.

Raidho is not in this liga at all. it is made in Denmak ore is it that all you can say about this speaker.

 

[vassago]

Frantz,

I think you have me confused with the Magico guys. I believe Everything is voiced. Even for the most hardcore engineers with a tin ear do about 10-15% of tweaking of their designs. But Magico guys think the sound of the speaker is the sound of God. In reality, it’s the job of the designer to design gear that is aesthetically pleasing, enjoyable, exciting, and functional - and voice things to sound like music! Not everyone finds a 58 year-old woman exciting in a sexually confident role. Instead most get excited over a 24 year old doing that flick. Personally I don’t care about the underlying technology one bit - even if it’s gerbils and mice having a good time, as long as they make great music and put you in a state of internal bliss.

I already told you that I don’t like the Q class. I explain why and characterize their sonic signature and I get attacked by the Magico mafia because I don’t share their taste. Even Valin, who should be thanked by all the Magico fans for exposing the brand to a wider audience, gets put down for expressing his opinion.

Speaker taste is no different than going to a restaurant and enjoying a meal or biting into a piece of food and automatically having your lips pucker, while your stomach muscles are contracting. It’s also very similar to selecting a church or a synagogue - in the free market of thousands of available religious institutions. In the end, it about whether it makes you feel good or not. The subconscious part of the brain evolved much earlier than the conscious part.

And for those who still don’t think that Authorities influence purchasing choices, are choosing blindness over seeing reality as it really is. Why would wolf swallow his pride and invite valin, not Harley, to review his $600K horn speaker after valin dumped magico for estelon and raidho? If he is honest with himself and didn’t repress it, it probably hurt A LOT, yet he did it anyways… Why are Albert von Schweikert and Mark Levinson virtually begging Valin in his blog to review their speakers? And why was it virtually impossible to hear, let alone audition in one’s own system, the $16k Berkeley dac after the Harley review, with a 3-4 month backlog? If it were valin or fremer, it would probably be a whole year backup. All guys decide by using their own ears. Riiiight!!!… Likewise denying the existence of the concept of social proof in this hobby that makes brands more successful is a rejection of reality.

Always a ball of fun interacting with the Magico fans. Quite an interesting, entertaining and (surprisingly) emotional group, indeed, considering that the brand promise rests on "rationality". Great comic relief from some of my boring projects.

Hehe..

The sound of God, that is good...

No that is MBL...

 

[number95]

Frantz,

I think you have me confused with the Magico guys. I believe Everything is voiced. Even for the most hardcore engineers with a tin ear do about 10-15% of tweaking of their designs. But Magico guys think the sound of the speaker is the sound of God. In reality, it’s the job of the designer to design gear that is aesthetically pleasing, enjoyable, exciting, and functional - and voice things to sound like music! Not everyone finds a 58 year-old woman exciting in a sexually confident role. Instead most get excited over a 24 year old doing that flick. Personally I don’t care about the underlying technology one bit - even if it’s gerbils and mice having a good time, as long as they make great music and put you in a state of internal bliss.

I already told you that I don’t like the Q class. I explain why and characterize their sonic signature and I get attacked by the Magico mafia because I don’t share their taste. Even Valin, who should be thanked by all the Magico fans for exposing the brand to a wider audience, gets put down for expressing his opinion.

Speaker taste is no different than going to a restaurant and enjoying a meal or biting into a piece of food and automatically having your lips pucker, while your stomach muscles are contracting. It’s also very similar to selecting a church or a synagogue - in the free market of thousands of available religious institutions. In the end, it about whether it makes you feel good or not. The subconscious part of the brain evolved much earlier than the conscious part.

And for those who still don’t think that Authorities influence purchasing choices, are choosing blindness over seeing reality as it really is. Why would wolf swallow his pride and invite valin, not Harley, to review his $600K horn speaker after valin dumped magico for estelon and raidho? If he is honest with himself and didn’t repress it, it probably hurt A LOT, yet he did it anyways… Why are Albert von Schweikert and Mark Levinson virtually begging Valin in his blog to review their speakers? And why was it virtually impossible to hear, let alone audition in one’s own system, the $16k Berkeley dac after the Harley review, with a 3-4 month backlog? If it were valin or fremer, it would probably be a whole year backup. All guys decide by using their own ears. Riiiight!!!… Likewise denying the existence of the concept of social proof in this hobby that makes brands more successful is a rejection of reality.

Always a ball of fun interacting with the Magico fans. Quite an interesting, entertaining and (surprisingly) emotional group, indeed, considering that the brand promise rests on "rationality". Great comic relief from some of my boring projects.

Get a life man...

 

[FrantzM]

Frantz,

I think you have me confused with the Magico guys. I believe Everything is voiced. Even for the most hardcore engineers with a tin ear do about 10-15% of tweaking of their designs. But Magico guys think the sound of the speaker is the sound of God. In reality, it’s the job of the designer to design gear that is aesthetically pleasing, enjoyable, exciting, and functional - and voice things to sound like music! Not everyone finds a 58 year-old woman exciting in a sexually confident role. Instead most get excited over a 24 year old doing that flick. Personally I don’t care about the underlying technology one bit - even if it’s gerbils and mice having a good time, as long as they make great music and put you in a state of internal bliss.

I already told you that I don’t like the Q class. I explain why and characterize their sonic signature and I get attacked by the Magico mafia because I don’t share their taste. Even Valin, who should be thanked by all the Magico fans for exposing the brand to a wider audience, gets put down for expressing his opinion.

Speaker taste is no different than going to a restaurant and enjoying a meal or biting into a piece of food and automatically having your lips pucker, while your stomach muscles are contracting. It’s also very similar to selecting a church or a synagogue - in the free market of thousands of available religious institutions. In the end, it about whether it makes you feel good or not. The subconscious part of the brain evolved much earlier than the conscious part.

And for those who still don’t think that Authorities influence purchasing choices, are choosing blindness over seeing reality as it really is. Why would wolf swallow his pride and invite valin, not Harley, to review his $600K horn speaker after valin dumped magico for estelon and raidho? If he is honest with himself and didn’t repress it, it probably hurt A LOT, yet he did it anyways… Why are Albert von Schweikert and Mark Levinson virtually begging Valin in his blog to review their speakers? And why was it virtually impossible to hear, let alone audition in one’s own system, the $16k Berkeley dac after the Harley review, with a 3-4 month backlog? If it were valin or fremer, it would probably be a whole year backup. All guys decide by using their own ears. Riiiight!!!… Likewise denying the existence of the concept of social proof in this hobby that makes brands more successful is a rejection of reality.

Always a ball of fun interacting with the Magico fans. Quite an interesting, entertaining and (surprisingly) emotional group, indeed, considering that the brand promise rests on "rationality". Great comic relief from some of my boring projects.

I am not sure anyone is attacking you. many are tired of your insistent attacks on Magico and some other brands you don'tlike. Your persistence is unique in WBF. We do find people who don't like a given product but they don't seem to go often around trying (often lamely) to badmouth a whole brand of product as much as you do. That's all.

As for the power of suggestions, I am one of the (few?) proponents of blind tests here. I have not seen you too much in favor of this method or have I been wrong? Inconsistencies? And you strongly believe that your favorite speakers did not profit from reviewers liking them too? Inconsistencies again ... That is the problem with your approach, when it is your favorite brands they are great because ... they are great (circular reasoning here) but for those you don't like .. all kind of rationales some of these pretty weak surface with a stridency and consistency some may find unappealing . All that IMHO .... and that of many here

It is all good, man, we get you don't like Magico sound. And you like MBL ( I don't) and you like Wilson ( not a big fan, X-2 I like.... the rest ...meh haven't heard enough to form a judgement but not that interested). Just tone it down a little bit in your posts. No reason to go after Valin and all the other who like Magico.

@everyone else
I haven't heard the M-project but I have heard the Q series and I know these are not the flattering type. They will tell you what is wrong with your system and likely your room too. Many celebrated Speakers with a lively bump in the midbass will require a placement that allows a flatter curve in-room (if one is after that anyway). Placing a Magico Q in the same position may results in a depressed midbass in-room response ... So it will require some time and care in placing these speakers in a room and maybe a certain amount of treatment . I am not a believer in cables and especially Power cables as tone controls .. YMMV.I would say from B&W to Magico is a re-education and IMO a better path to accurate reproduction of sonic events in one's home.

 

[andromedaaudio]

I vote for ceasar i think he is right on a lot of things , apart from magico being one of the exxcelent LS (companies) , brand hyping is quite common off course,regarding magicos bass: A FR response taken in an anechoic chamber(if magico did that ?) isnt the same as a FR response in room .
An example imo is the M 5 and Q 3 , anyone has a inroom fr example of both, i dont think there will be a lot of bassoutput at low freq, a real measurement without " averaging" would say something , apart from J valin talking

 

[Elberoth]

I am not sure anyone is attacking you. many are tired of your insistent attacks on Magico and some other brands you don'tlike. Your persistence is unique in WBF. We do find people who don't like a given product but they don't seem to go often around trying (often lamely) to badmouth a whole brand of product as much as you do. That's all.

+1