I am beginning to think that Caesar makes polemic statements for the purpose of analyzing how people respond for some perverse study he is conducting on human psychology.
Hint of new Magico products
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I am beginning to think that Caesar makes polemic statements for the purpose of analyzing how people respond for some perverse study he is conducting on human psychology.
could well be , by the way its an audioforum people shouldnt think to much of it , but since some magico owners state that only closed magico cabinets produce accurate low freq , i think its time they show some measurementfactsI think this is a poor analogy. Yes, some people select speakers because a particular model makes them feel good, they simply "like" it, or some review convinced them that it is the real deal. But others choose specific speakers because they are trying to get some semblance of the sound of real music in their homes based on their own experience of listening to live performances. They want a speaker to recreate what they think a violin or piano or voice really sounds like. They ask themselves, does the MBL, Wilson, or Marten Logan panel sound more like the cello I heard last night at that recital? For these people, selecting a speaker is not like trying to decide what to have for dessert. Lemon torte or chocolate truffle anyone?
Peter,
I am not disagreeing with you. My only point is that at the end, whether an individual is selecting speakers or making any other decision, all rational arguments go away and people go with their gut (because that part of the brain has been around a lot longer than the rational part.
As a part time "speakermanufacturer" you should be trying to keep up with current publications in your field.
There aren't too many brands that have been reviewed and measured, all over the world, more than Magico (Including anechoic chamber measurements as well as in-room and gated/averaging). Their bass extension is beyond reproach of most speakers out there (The Q5 at MF room had 10 dB more output at 20Hz than the Wilson’s MAXX). What they don’t have is the typical bump, associated with just about all ported design - thank god. Now what is wrong with hyping a superb product? Especially in an industry with almost zero innovation across the board.
I am not sure anyone is attacking you. many are tired of your insistent attacks on Magico and some other brands you don'tlike. Your persistence is unique in WBF. We do find people who don't like a given product but they don't seem to go often around trying (often lamely) to badmouth a whole brand of product as much as you do. That's all.
As for the power of suggestions, I am one of the (few?) proponents of blind tests here. I have not seen you too much in favor of this method or have I been wrong? Inconsistencies? And you strongly believe that your favorite speakers did not profit from reviewers liking them too? Inconsistencies again ... That is the problem with your approach, when it is your favorite brands they are great because ... they are great (circular reasoning here) but for those you don't like .. all kind of rationales some of these pretty weak surface with a stridency and consistency some may find unappealing . All that IMHO .... and that of many here
It is all good, man, we get you don't like Magico sound. And you like MBL ( I don't) and you like Wilson ( not a big fan, X-2 I like.... the rest ...meh haven't heard enough to form a judgement but not that interested). Just tone it down a little bit in your posts. No reason to go after Valin and all the other who like Magico.
@everyone else
I haven't heard the M-project but I have heard the Q series and I know these are not the flattering type. They will tell you what is wrong with your system and likely your room too. Many celebrated Speakers with a lively bump in the midbass will require a placement that allows a flatter curve in-room (if one is after that anyway). Placing a Magico Q in the same position may results in a depressed midbass in-room response ... So it will require some time and care in placing these speakers in a room and maybe a certain amount of treatment . I am not a believer in cables and especially Power cables as tone controls .. YMMV.I would say from B&W to Magico is a re-education and IMO a better path to accurate reproduction of sonic events in one's home.
Frantz,
I am actually in agreement with a lot of what you say (less the blind testing stuff). Take the example of me liking MBL. I like it. It sounds "real" to me. I know it's an illusion, but it makes me suspend disbelief. And as you say, there are other powerful forces acting, some subconscious, such as long lines at shows (social proof), guys who I respect that like them (liking and authority), rarity of the model (scarcity) dozens of glowing reviews (authority), etc. This is not circular reasoning, but how human nature itself works. Why, as your tag line says, not see reality as it really is and accept it?
By the way I never push my taste on anyone and could care less whether others like it or not. I don't associate my self esteem to others liking or disliking my favorites, as the Magico mafia guys do.
My interest in Magico is only intellectual. Likewise with Wilson. And my labeling of Magico sonic signature as less visceral bass and more emphasis on upper midrange/ lower treble is fair. The bigger brands are also more fun to discuss. I don't like a lot of other brands, but it's no fun talking about a tiny brand that sells only 3 or 4 pieces a year, to his mother, father, brother, and sister.
Thanks for the personal attack, man. I am sorry your self esteem is tied to others approval of your choices.
Dre,
Looks like Valin is in a no-win situation with the Magico mafia guys. They feel he has crossed them by moving away from the brand. When he challenges their preconceptions of things as they are and bursts their illusions, he is pummelled here.
My recommendation is that his immense talents should be utilized in reviewing other brands. Let's leave magico review work to harley, for the next 23 years.
Cannata ,you mean this publication , according to the way JA measures the Q 5 would have the relative same output at 20 hz then the maxx 3 not plus 10 db , anyway these averaged measurements i dont take very seriously , anybody can smooth bass output lines and save them accordingly
http://www.stereophile.com/content/magico-q5-loudspeaker-measurements
Here is one that JA did of the V 3s bass , are you gonna tell me straightfaced that the V3 has full output at 10 hz , come on
http://www.stereophile.com/content/magico-v3-loudspeaker-measurements
Or another one i ve never seen a 1/6 octave response look like that , especially under 300 hz flat to 20 hz , it seems this room has no interference with the output is it an anechoic chamber ?, looks like a smoothed line to me virtually no corrections in the graph , look at the high freq drop off , that doesnt look like a normal tw roll off , the berylium dome goes down at a almost straightline from 20 khz ?
http://www.soundstageultra.com/index.php/twbas-menu/252-inevitable-magico-q7-loudspeakers
http://www.stereophile.com/content/magico-q5-loudspeaker-measurements
Here is one that JA did of the V 3s bass , are you gonna tell me straightfaced that the V3 has full output at 10 hz , come on
http://www.stereophile.com/content/magico-v3-loudspeaker-measurements
Or another one i ve never seen a 1/6 octave response look like that , especially under 300 hz flat to 20 hz , it seems this room has no interference with the output is it an anechoic chamber ?, looks like a smoothed line to me virtually no corrections in the graph , look at the high freq drop off , that doesnt look like a normal tw roll off , the berylium dome goes down at a almost straightline from 20 khz ?
http://www.soundstageultra.com/index.php/twbas-menu/252-inevitable-magico-q7-loudspeakers
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The king of passive aggressive
I actually had the Q3, in my house for about a week (I own an S5). I hate to break it to you but when it comes to bass, the main difference between them was the quality of the bass, and not the quantity. In fact, the balance was quite similar. Some may mistake the overhang character of the S bass to a “fuller” bass, but it is simply "looser" sounding (it does go lower, however, which is nice). Once you “get” the sound of the Q3 bass, there is no question which is better, and I can assure you, you will agree with me as well
Cannata,
It's actually not hard to hear a magico in a good room in the USA. And being intellectually curious, I've actually heard them under a variety of conditions. When I hear a Magico in an expensive, well designed room vs. a show, I just hear more detail and better execution of audiophile vocabulary. It never puts me in a state of flow, that highest form of human happiness where I am so engrossed and captured by the activity of listening to music, that all external stimuli are blocked and me and the music become one, and mind and body are fused. Who cares if the stage moved 2 feet sideways or back, or if someone farted in the audience?
I'm not sure why it's so hard to accept that people will not appreciate the same thing as you. Take a piece of blue cheese: is it moldy, stinky and disgusting, or is it heavenly?...
Anyways, since you claim to be such an expert in detecting bass and sonic signatures, let's see some pictures of your room, please.
No gated measurements will have full output down to 10Hz (unless the speakers are eq).
But looking at Magico V3, spatially averaged response, sure looks like full output at 10Hz. If you look at similar spatially averaged of the Wilson Sasha (http://www.stereophile.com/content/wilson-audio-sasha-wp-loudspeaker-measurements), you will see that it is 20db (!!) down at 10Hz (albeit a different room). The “anechoic response” of the V3 is indeed, 10db higher at 10Hz then the Sasha. If you don’t like JA measurements, try Soundstage, were anechoic chamber is actually used. Not very many loudspeakers will top the S5 bass extension (and none its extraordinary low THD stat).
I am sorry to see a biased (or I should say lost) mind who makes assessments based on his perceptions. Does everyone here in this forum who likes Magico or having a pair called "Magico Gang"?! Perhaps then you must be Captain America...
Perhaps not, but I am disagreeing with you.
A couple of months ago I went to a performance of a cello and piano sonata in a private residence with about twenty five people in attendance. The sound of the instruments left quite an impression on me. I have since listened to similar music on four different systems. Are you saying that when I identify one of the systems as sounding more similar to the sound of what I heard at that performance, it is because of what my gut is telling me and that it has nothing to do with reason, or the ear/brain/memory connection? I guess my stomach is influencing my brain, and I actually "feel" like, rather than think that, the sound is more natural/real sounding in one of the systems than in the others.
Being moved by live music is an emotional experience. Analyzing which speaker sounds more accurate, is an intellectual exercise involving reason. If the sound of the speakers/system then approaches what one remembers from the sound of actual music, then listening to a system can be very emotional as well. For some, that is the entire goal of the hobby.
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Mine do big time
no contest extension wise , but what the S 5 does is refined and transparent i ll give you that
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Mine do big time
Well, thank you
An anechoic measurement of the S 5 , the speaker drops slightly under 200 hz with a -3 db point at around 30 hz , a neutral speaker with indeed quit a lot of bassoutput compared to many of the competition as i read through the NRC anechoic measurements
I still cant find the smoothfactor anywhere maybe the magazine can tell ??
Would be nice if soundstage would do some anechoic measurements of big systems like alexandria , Q 7 or large rockports , avalon isis ,dynaudios von schweikerts and others ,..... but that is off course quite an undertaking logisticwise
http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/in...&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=153
I still cant find the smoothfactor anywhere maybe the magazine can tell ??
Would be nice if soundstage would do some anechoic measurements of big systems like alexandria , Q 7 or large rockports , avalon isis ,dynaudios von schweikerts and others ,..... but that is off course quite an undertaking logisticwise
http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/in...&catid=77:loudspeaker-measurements&Itemid=153
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Here is a nrc graph of a brand that is sometimes forgotten here also a very neutral speaker , this is a bass reflex design one could argue which is more accurate the slight couple db elevation of the C 4 or the opposite of the S 5 under 200 hz , they share about the same - 3 db point at 30 hz , so alll this talk about inaccurate bassreflex designs obviously comes from another factor then FR response imo
http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/dynaudio_confidence_c4/
http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/dynaudio_confidence_c4/
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I read an interview with Andy Payor who said that both sealed bass and ported bass end up using/having to design around resonance in some fashion...its just the physics. It seemed his viewpoint was the execution was key, and apparently with his flared ports tuned to 24hz, he obviously liked the solution he designed. I think Wilson ports are also tuned to around 24-28hz.
Peter,
I talked about this in the Raidho thread: "...Obviously it was an error because that is not the case in the way our brain is wired. Instead, we, humans, prefer things that are familiar to us. If you have been going to a small mom and pop jazz bar for the last 30 years, the acoustic signature of that joint is a big part of your reference and what sounds right to you. The pattern recognition and familiarity areas of the brain are activate when one is listening to music. So we have learned to focus on certain tones, pitches, melodies, and harmonic structures over others. In a nutshell, we have learned to focus on some aspects of the sound, those that are familiar to us, while ignoring others. Otherwise, our ancestors would have gotten confused by the various sounds coming from their environment, and would have been easier lunch to the roaming predator. For that same reason, it is why at an audio show some people sit glued, with their jaw agape and the hairs on the back of neck standing up, while others walk out, shaking their head and wondering of what the other "idiots" are so thrilled about when the system sounds "flat" and "dead" to them. And that’s why when listening to a Magico, after constant media bombardment telling us it is the “best”, is such a disappointing and unfulfilling experience to many of us, while being an uplifting experience to their fans.
Bottom line is that our brains are designed to prefer auditory patterns that we have grown accustomed to..."
But you make an important point, which some Magico guys don't get: this hobby is a different things to different people who are in different marketing segments. Valin, actually wisely recognizes this and has called magico a "transparency to source" speaker. (however, this violates the brand promise of the absolute sound.) Remember, this conversation started when someone quoted valin saying the Q tweeter was hot. I jumped in as saying I am not surprised he perceived this after listening the to Raidho tweeter, since the entire magico sonic signature can be analyzed, on reflection (using you term), as "thinner, less visceral bass with an emphasis on upper midrange and lower treble". I believe this is dead on, not denigrating in any way. After that I, I got personally attacked as if I blasphemed a religious figure... And why is it ok for some magico supremacists to denigrate other brands and design desicions, but "feel hurt" when people poke fun at their silly claims? Why can't others who don't care for magico be offended? I think it's a real shame that some magico guys do not realize that their preferred sonic signature is not the best, but just a preference, and one of many to choose from in the free market.
Amen! Some guys need to realize that there are many ways to design things...just read through a book of patents...David Wilson played around with metal enclosures and beryllium tweeters and rejected them. Andrew "God" Jones of TAD has a backing of the Pioneer billion dollar enterprise R&D, and if he made certain decisions for a reason...YG made certain decisions, and so has magico. each has their proponents...magico supremacy movement is ridiculous!
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