What is the threshold (in U$) of diminishing return in high End Audio?

[FrantzM]

Hi

This thread in inspired by the recent "$5,000 system to obliterate $30,000 system" type of thread we have recently seen on the WBF. It is my contention that there is a threshold beyond which progression/impovemnt virtually stop and we start going sideways.I IOW different flavors but IMO and sometimes IME, improvements are minimal to nil.
What do you think is that threshold in term of investments in components only? I have put aside for now the ever important listening environment.
Waiting for your input

 

[Rodney Gold]

The limit is only reached and the threshold breached when your wallet screams NOO!!!!!

 

[JackD201]

or the wife.

Seriously though it really depends on what you expect the system to do, both how much it does and how it does it. I'd say for easy listening in a 25sqm or less room then 5k is easy to spend well. Start listening more spiritedly without having to endure bogeymen like thermal distortion (schreeeech!) and ill defined bass (whooomp!) and the price quickly climbs.

As for DIY I think we have to be fair. Time is valuable. A DIYer should include what he makes per hour at his day job into the build cost. That would make it more of an apples to apples comparison, if not at least it would be apples to pears.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Hi

This thread in inspired by the recent "$5,000 system to obliterate $30,000 system" type of thread we have recently seen on the WBF. It is my contention that there is a threshold beyond which progression/impovemnt virtually stop and we start going sideways.I IOW different flavors but IMO and sometimes IME, improvements are minimal to nil.
What do you think is that threshold in term of investments in components only? I have put aside for now the ever important listening environment.
Waiting for your input

when you approach the steepest part of diminishing returns it turns out you don't go sideways. you break through. the sideways part is where you swung and missed.

it's like having a restrictor plate on a powerful engine. only you are blind to fully understand in what way your engine is restricted.

but when you do find the restriction and it's removed then your 'uber' gear can strut it's stuff.

I've been in this 'tune' mode for a few years now and I've had my share of swings and misses (sideways); and others where I've broken through.

another approach is to listen to the naysayers and wait for proof. it's a choice.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Hi

This thread in inspired by the recent "$5,000 system to obliterate $30,000 system" type of thread we have recently seen on the WBF. It is my contention that there is a threshold beyond which progression/impovemnt virtually stop and we start going sideways.I IOW different flavors but IMO and sometimes IME, improvements are minimal to nil.
What do you think is that threshold in term of investments in components only? I have put aside for now the ever important listening environment.
Waiting for your input

You can put aside room treatments, but you can't put aside the room. The size of the listening room, and the desired volume/scale in that room, have far more impact on this question than any component other than the speakers IMO.

Tim

 

[Purite Audio]

You can put aside room treatments, but you can't put aside the room. The size of the listening room, and the desired volume/scale in that room, have far more impact on this question than any component other than the speakers IMO.

Tim

This, a great deal of the 'hi-end' is no more than expensive male jewellery, and there is nothing wrong in that as such, personally I prefer to look for genuinely good engineering and innovative design , which doesn't have to cost a fortune.
Just look at Professional audio equipment.
Keith.

 

[esldude]

$500.

Some years back I had the chance to hear several systems that would be near the best available and everything in between that and entry level. Trying to answer this same question I came to the conclusion it was a 2 to the 4th power function. To sound subjectively twice as good you need to spend 16 times the money.

Now the upper end has extended, become so expensive etc. I don't know the right people to hear lots of the best available or at least the most expensive available. I still believe that function holds true until some very high point where people are no longer buying performance.

I know of a $500 all in set up that is an audiophile result with good musicality. When non-audiophiles hear it they comment on how good it sounds unprompted and start asking what it costs usually thinking it is more expensive than it is. To double the quality of that by my estimate would cost $8000. Having heard a good many $6-10k systems this sounds just about right. To double again we are looking at a $128k system. I haven't had the pleasure of so many of those, but the ones I have heard also strike me as being in line with my estimate. To double again we are over $2 million for a stereo system and I have no experience with those.

So diminishing returns start at $500.

As pointed out somewhere along the way the room and room treatment become too important to ignore. Even the $500 system benefits from that noticeably. I would say the $8k system can be impressive without it, and certainly beyond those you are wasting money not to treat and consider the room.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

This, a great deal of the 'hi-end' is no more than expensive male jewellery, and there is nothing wrong in that as such, personally I prefer to look for genuinely good engineering and innovative design , which doesn't have to cost a fortune.
Just look at Professional audio equipment.
Keith.

I almost said that, Keith, but I've said it so many times before and almost no one listens. What was the target? $5k. In a normal domestic listening environment, at reasonable listening levels, using pro audio (active monitors/subs) and a good, but not nervosa-obsessive digital front end, one should be able to achieve something very close to SOTA for $5k.

Tim

 

[DaveC]

$500.

Some years back I had the chance to hear several systems that would be near the best available and everything in between that and entry level. Trying to answer this same question I came to the conclusion it was a 2 to the 4th power function. To sound subjectively twice as good you need to spend 16 times the money.

Now the upper end has extended, become so expensive etc. I don't know the right people to hear lots of the best available or at least the most expensive available. I still believe that function holds true until some very high point where people are no longer buying performance.

I know of a $500 all in set up that is an audiophile result with good musicality. When non-audiophiles hear it they comment on how good it sounds unprompted and start asking what it costs usually thinking it is more expensive than it is. To double the quality of that by my estimate would cost $8000. Having heard a good many $6-10k systems this sounds just about right. To double again we are looking at a $128k system. I haven't had the pleasure of so many of those, but the ones I have heard also strike me as being in line with my estimate. To double again we are over $2 million for a stereo system and I have no experience with those.

So diminishing returns start at $500.

As pointed out somewhere along the way the room and room treatment become too important to ignore. Even the $500 system benefits from that noticeably. I would say the $8k system can be impressive without it, and certainly beyond those you are wasting money not to treat and consider the room.

That seems reasonable. Some ELAC speakers and a basic integrated amp with DAC built in... maybe you need to spend a little more than $500 to reach the point, but I do think it's lower than most would consider. I mean, the ELAC speaker do sound good to a lot of people.

I wouldn't look at the high end for answers on what sounds best anymore, that's not the point of that market.

Also, there is the issue of perspective, for someone who has spent 6-figures the differences achieved spending more may be small to some, but to the owner of the system it might seem far more significant. So we run into the problem of defining the return for the money as the results are almost purely subjective. Some may not hear ANY difference but the owner of the system, being very familiar with it, may perceive the difference as night-and-day. Whose right? IDK... I'm tempted to say the person spending the money is always right but we all know people have biases.

 

[esldude]

I almost said that, Keith, but I've said it so many times before and almost no one listens. What was the target? $5k. In a normal domestic listening environment, at reasonable listening levels, using pro audio (active monitors/subs) and a good, but not nervosa-obsessive digital front end, one should be able to achieve something very close to SOTA for $5k.

Tim

I would agree except for the speakers, and the room needed for such speakers. Even the top pro speakers get rather pricey. Like the M2's or the top level Genelecs. Close for $5k yes. I do think there is real additional performance for a bit money more using pro gear.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I would agree except for the speakers, and the room needed for such speakers. Even the top pro speakers get rather pricey. Like the M2's or the top level Genelecs.

I don't think we disagree. I think when you get into larger rooms and/or desire greater volume, the price point goes up. Honestly, I rarely want more than about 80dB, and that's easy to achieve in my room, so my challenge is easy. The money is in the scale. And the M2s would be way out of scale in my room.

Tim

 

[Purite Audio]

But those M2 ,Grimm, Genelec, PSI loudspeakers will offer state of the art measurements and performance, they are relatively expensive but nowhere near the price of Magico, Wilson etc etc.
Keith.

 

[edorr]

In my experience, speakers costing around $15-$20K MSRP (selling for $5-$10 used) are at the price/performance inflection point.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Imo its the room , the system doesnt have to be stratospherically priced to get uber results in a superb room .
And ive heard only one exceptionally good room in my live , most were so so even some measured and commercially treated ones , trapezium shaped room with the speakers placed on the short side like a theather , a room with a low noise floor sound proof doors etc etc

shapes-clipart-trapezium-ns-bw by andromeda61, on Flickr

 

[esldude]

But those M2 ,Grimm, Genelec, PSI loudspeakers will offer state of the art measurements and performance, they are relatively expensive but nowhere near the price of Magico, Wilson etc etc.
Keith.

So all you need to do are have an identical setup with Wilson or Magico and one of those others. Then we'll see if the extra money nets anything. I bet lots of people would show up to help you make a decision on that.

 

[Purite Audio]

So all you need to do are have an identical setup with Wilson or Magico and one of those others. Then we'll see if the extra money nets anything. I bet lots of people would show up to help you make a decision on that.

There is a group in Spain , Matrix perhaps? They carry out the same sort of unsighted tests, components behind a sheet, a less sophisticated version of the Harman tests.
Keith.

 

[dallasjustice]

shootout

There is a group in Spain , Matrix perhaps? They carry out the same sort of unsighted tests, components behind a sheet, a less sophisticated version of the Harman tests.
Keith.

I've always thought it would be good dealer bullshit to do shootouts (preferably unsighted). You see it all the time here in the US at car dealer lots. I just saw the local Volvo dealer with a nice Range Rover on prominent display. It's a tricky thing though. I once test drove a Mercedes and an Audi was on the lot. I ended up going to the Audi dealer and bought the Audi.(I found out 18 months later it was a lemon).

I think the best way to do it is to have the manufacturer support a shoutout tour. Several years ago YG bought a pair of Magico speakers and toured the US with them. I am not sure how many YG speakers were sold but it's a good piece of marketing if you can back it up. It could also work well in a hotel ballroom at one of the audio shows.

 

[esldude]

Once knew of a dealer with a large room. He could set up identically in either end of this symmetrical room. You could use everything the same with two speakers in each end. Simply swap your chair around and listen. He normally had pairs from the same brand in each end with the best vs whatever else you wanted to compare. Made it easy to see what you received and what was missing in a lower level vs their best.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

But those M2 ,Grimm, Genelec, PSI loudspeakers will offer state of the art measurements and performance, they are relatively expensive but nowhere near the price of Magico, Wilson etc etc.
Keith.

Yep.

Tim

 

[dallasjustice]

In my experience, speakers costing around $15-$20K MSRP (selling for $5-$10 used) are at the price/performance inflection point.

+1

It may be not just be diminishing returns; rather no returns.