BACCH-SP: The future of high-end audio? Yes.

[aangen]

Ordered a BACCH4Mac Audiophile edition for my MacBook Air M2. I figure a laptop would be easier than using a MacMin which will require a separate monitor, keyboard and mouse to operate. Although not stated in the website, Edgar confirms this laptop is fine for the job.

From what I gather, we need the included RME Babyface Pro with mics only for calibration. Thereafter after the macbook can operate alone connecting directly to the DAC via USB and itself being an endpoint receiving data from a network player.

This means the BACCH is pretty much portable if one has a few hifi systems in play. Just need to calibrate once per system.

On the matter of the BACCH4Mac adding its own signature to the sound, surely the changes it is making to the music file is so great it will be almost unrecognisable after the BACCH filter process? Especially so with the room correction ORC filter too. The music file is totally changed (for the better), we are not talking about bit perfect incremental sonic changes like changing streamers, DACs, cables or connection types like USB or XDMI. Think minced meat from a steak difference! I expect it to be like moving from mono to stereo difference.

Edgar claims his filters are totally transparent and won't affect the sound character of the system one bit. But on his FAQ he states:

" Not only do BACCH filters purify the sound from crosstalk, but they also purify it from aberrations by the playback hardware in both the frequency and time domains. "​

Aren't aberrations part of the flavour and character of the system? Once gone, the character of the old system will be substantially different - more real, accurate and room independent.



It's one of the reasons why I'm starting with the BACCH4Mac. The use of the BACCH-SP device might not make a difference for the same reasons. :-D

I think going BACCH, one has to be prepared for a totally new experience. To enjoy it fully, one has to accept the old school thoughts and worries might not be valid anymore. Old beloved equipment may not matter anymore. And this big jump is scary for most audiophiles like me. But exciting too, to live in an era where such technology is available to try.

I believe you should talk to Edgar before you finalize this purchase. I do not believe a Mac is a Mac in regards to this software. I bought the BACCH-SP adio first, and the BACCH4MAC setup second. (I wanted to be familiar with it) I bought the BACCH4MAC Audiophile+ version which came with the correctly configured Mac Mini, the RME BabyFace Pro which is required to hook up the microphones needed to use the software correctly. Also included was the webcam for head tracking, all necessary cables, all packed a nice Attaché case. I control the BACCH4MAC with my MacBook Pro.

Saying the BACCH4MAC setup uses a Mac Mini does not mean it can work on other MAC computers. It is possible it does, but I don't know personally. Ask Edgar. Trust his answers.

 

[flkin]

Thanks for the heads up. I checked with Edgar before the purchase and it seems fine. Wanted the portability and fuss free all in one laptop rather than separate desktop components. Probably end up configuring it as a B4M plus Roon server or maybe play to it as a NAA endpoint or uPnP player from my Pink Faun streamer. Seems the output is USB and I can optionally clean it up the usual ways. I have experience with devices like SOtM’s txUSBUltra or Uptone’s IsoRegen.

 

[PYP]

Does the 3D imaging only affect the seating area from which the measurements were taken? Or can it be heard sitting elsewhere in the listening room?

 

[flkin]

My unit hasn’t arrived but I can answer that. I understand the 3D image is available at the sweet spot which can be pretty wide depending on how the head tracking camera scan was done. I’m told it can be as wide as a sofa but it’s intended to be only for a single listener. The sweet spot extends forward and backwards of the listener but less so sideways.

Outside of the sweet spot the sound is supposed to revert back into normal stereo.

 

[aangen]

Does the 3D imaging only affect the seating area from which the measurements were taken? Or can it be heard sitting elsewhere in the listening room?

Someone sitting directly behind the seat where the measurements were taken can hear at least 80% or possibly more. It isn't suffering. Left or right of the original position, not so much.

 

[VerdantAudio]

In my conversation with Edgar, he was of the opinion that Ethernet is best way to connect to his devices. I explained my plan to use the Antipodes K41 with the device and he was quite supportive. He is of the opinion that the internal I2S connection is optimal due to clock synchronization.

I am going to test all the inputs with my Oladra but I fully expect the Ethernet direct out to be best performer. I am chomping at the bit to get this thing to start comparing to other DACs.

 

[Avidlistener]

Has anyone heard or compared the U Bacch VST plug in (I use it inside Jriver) to the other Bacch hardware or Mac based solutions ? With the test tones I’m not getting imaging outside one of my speakers, despite them being far from any boundaries. Mine are coincident drivers - TAD CR1, which are phase accurate, so I was hoping to get more dimensional information from the plug in.

 

[Nuforce]

Has anyone heard or compared the U Bacch VST plug in (I use it inside Jriver) to the other Bacch hardware or Mac based solutions ? With the test tones I’m not getting imaging outside one of my speakers, despite them being far from any boundaries. Mine are coincident drivers - TAD CR1, which are phase accurate, so I was hoping to get more dimensional information from the plug in.

I'm considering trying the VST plugin too although with Audirvana. Do please report how to get on once you get it setup and working correctly

 

[Kingrex]

Any of you have your BACCH yet. Well. How is vinyl through it. Is it digital sounding? Is it analog sounding?

 

[aangen]

Any of you have your BACCH yet. Well. How is vinyl through it. Is it digital sounding? Is it analog sounding?

I listened to three vinyl albums tonight through my BACCH-SP adio. It seems nice. Easy to choose not to. Easier still to choose to.

 

[VPN]

Is it possible to use the Bacch-sp VST plug in with Roon?

 

[aubreyBobb]

I’d like to comment on my experience listening to BACCH processing. My friend has the software decoder only, none of the hardware, microphones, headtracking, etc. I listened to the system for about an hour and a half. I realize I didn’t get the complete BACCH-SP experience, so take this for what it’s worth.

For me, the effect of the decoder was pretty program dependent. Depending on the track, I generally had one of three reactions: sounded cool, sounded wrong, drove me crazy. The processing did take a few choice tracks to another level. The dimensionality of the soundstage opened up and I heard a more convincing illusion of musicians performing in space. These tracks tended to be live, acoustic, “capture the mic feed” type recordings.

Other recordings simply sounded wrong. The processing did strange things to instrument location and tonality. It was like someone had taken silly putty to the soundstage, stretching it in odd directions. In a jazz ensemble, half the piano was dead center and the other half was directly outside my right ear. On another jazz recording, a single saxophone was spread out across the entire front stage. Some may find this interesting, but I found it distracting. These tended to be multi-mic’d, multi-track recordings that sound excellent in stereo but got bent out of shape by the processing.

Finally, there were a number of recordings that triggered a negative nervous reaction in me. It felt like a cross between claustrophobia and vertigo. On a few I had to tell my friend to stop the track because the presentation triggered a “flight” reaction that made me want to run out of the room. On the track Money from DSOTM, the cash register and coin sounds were pinned just outside my ears on the left and right side of my head and I couldn’t get away from them. It really creeped me out. Maybe this is just me and the way I’m wired. I’m just passing this on in case others are sensitive to these things.

I’m not sharing this to discredit the product. I’m sharing this because, in over 40 years of playing in the audiophile sandbox, I’ve never had such a strange, and at times, uncomfortable reaction to an audio system.

Russ

Russ,

you might need to experiment with the mono component tool. It solved most of those kinds of issues for me.
Best wishes

 

[VerdantAudio]

I have now spent quite a bit of time with the BACCH-SP. There is a lot to like. I have not done everything I intend to yet but have done a lot of listening and can say that it is as good as I had hoped. What was most fascinating is my wife sat down to listen and I set up a filter and head tracking for her and after about 10 minutes of listening she said, "We aren't selling this...ever, right?"

My experience has been fascinating. Overall, the BACCH was easy to setup and the process to create a filter is easy. Edgar ran through the setup with me for the first time which was helpful and I went in and altered my setup a bit. Interestingly, found moving the speakers closer together made a material impact.

Now for listening. image clarity, focus and stability are far better than anything I have heard. This was expected based on the demo but for this item to deliver on my expectations after my demo in Edgar's home is slightly surprising. Regarding clarity, there is very little distortion and smearing. I have gone way beyond my normal test tracks. Three Wishes off of Roger Waters Amused to death has an opening where a woman is talking about buying something. With BACCH on, the voice is crystal clear and is very localized to my immediate left. 9:00 and very focused. Turn the BACCH off and clarity drops and the voice is still coming from my left but is far less focused and is spread between 9:00 and 11:00.

Next I decided that kind of clarity and localization would make a sound bath incredible. There are a bunch of these recorded out on tidal. In one, you can literally hear the percussion on each bowl that is highly localized and as the monk moves and hits different bowls, you can pinpoint the precise location of each. It legit takes a sound bath and makes it sound like you are in a monastery or in a spa as those are the two most common locations for said experiences.

These are two extreme examples but I setup the system so that I could simply swap inputs on my preamp and compare the BACCH to an EMM Labs DA2, Rockna Wavedream Signature and Playback Designs MPD-6. There is a lot to like about these other DACs. There is a sweetness to the EMM, the imaging and musicality of the Playback are amazing and the Rockna is incredibly detailed and sounds massive. They are all different and enjoyable.

The DAC is absolutely in this $15K to $30K price class. Even with the DSP off, the DAC does not feel outclassed by these competitors. It is just a different flavor and is closest probably to the Weiss Helios in terms of sound profile. It is dead neutral and detail and clarity are stunning.

With the DSP on, the BACCH is unlike these others. It feels like you are sitting in the studio or on stage listening to these performers and the clarity is just next level. You know reflections are creating timing issues when you are listening. This leads to that slightly echoey and smeared image. Some folks I know prefer that experience and this unit would not be for you.

What I was surprised at is that I decided to test with a couple different speakers. I have Canton Ref 7, Wilson Benesch Discovery3Zero and Audiovector R3s. I expected everything to be perfect with the Canton and WBs. Given the Audiovectors design with rear firing tweeter and AMT, I was a bit concerned that this would not work well with them. I do think the WBs are clearly better, but was pleasantly surprised at how good the R3s sounded with this.

I don't think this unit is for everyone but wow is it special.

 

[Zuman]

I have now spent quite a bit of time with the BACCH-SP. There is a lot to like. I have not done everything I intend to yet but have done a lot of listening and can say that it is as good as I had hoped. What was most fascinating is my wife sat down to listen and I set up a filter and head tracking for her and after about 10 minutes of listening she said, "We aren't selling this...ever, right?"

My experience has been fascinating. Overall, the BACCH was easy to setup and the process to create a filter is easy. Edgar ran through the setup with me for the first time which was helpful and I went in and altered my setup a bit. Interestingly, found moving the speakers closer together made a material impact.

Now for listening. image clarity, focus and stability are far better than anything I have heard. This was expected based on the demo but for this item to deliver on my expectations after my demo in Edgar's home is slightly surprising. Regarding clarity, there is very little distortion and smearing. I have gone way beyond my normal test tracks. Three Wishes off of Roger Waters Amused to death has an opening where a woman is talking about buying something. With BACCH on, the voice is crystal clear and is very localized to my immediate left. 9:00 and very focused. Turn the BACCH off and clarity drops and the voice is still coming from my left but is far less focused and is spread between 9:00 and 11:00.

Next I decided that kind of clarity and localization would make a sound bath incredible. There are a bunch of these recorded out on tidal. In one, you can literally hear the percussion on each bowl that is highly localized and as the monk moves and hits different bowls, you can pinpoint the precise location of each. It legit takes a sound bath and makes it sound like you are in a monastery or in a spa as those are the two most common locations for said experiences.

These are two extreme examples but I setup the system so that I could simply swap inputs on my preamp and compare the BACCH to an EMM Labs DA2, Rockna Wavedream Signature and Playback Designs MPD-6. There is a lot to like about these other DACs. There is a sweetness to the EMM, the imaging and musicality of the Playback are amazing and the Rockna is incredibly detailed and sounds massive. They are all different and enjoyable.

The DAC is absolutely in this $15K to $30K price class. Even with the DSP off, the DAC does not feel outclassed by these competitors. It is just a different flavor and is closest probably to the Weiss Helios in terms of sound profile. It is dead neutral and detail and clarity are stunning.

With the DSP on, the BACCH is unlike these others. It feels like you are sitting in the studio or on stage listening to these performers and the clarity is just next level. You know reflections are creating timing issues when you are listening. This leads to that slightly echoey and smeared image. Some folks I know prefer that experience and this unit would not be for you.

What I was surprised at is that I decided to test with a couple different speakers. I have Canton Ref 7, Wilson Benesch Discovery3Zero and Audiovector R3s. I expected everything to be perfect with the Canton and WBs. Given the Audiovectors design with rear firing tweeter and AMT, I was a bit concerned that this would not work well with them. I do think the WBs are clearly better, but was pleasantly surprised at how good the R3s sounded with this.

I don't think this unit is for everyone but wow is it special.

Are you and your wife able to listen together satisfactorily, VerdantAudio? I demoed the BACCH system at CAF last year, and while I was impressed, I had a bit of trouble getting past the "solitary" aspect. Did I over-assume there?

 

[VerdantAudio]

Are you and your wife able to listen together satisfactorily, VerdantAudio? I demoed the BACCH system at CAF last year, and while I was impressed, I had a bit of trouble getting past the "solitary" aspect. Did I over-assume there?

I hosted the July NJ Audiophile event recently and had like 30 audiophiles in and had that room open and people cycling through. You can be in the room with it and it doesn’t mess up the sound but the experience is radically different when you are in the primary seat vs. sitting or standing anywhere else.

That said, the quality of the DAC in the Adio is at least at the same level as a Weiss Helios or Rockna Wavedream (I had on hand to compare) and is super easy to turn off the DSP so it multi-person listening it is still pretty great. When I say easy, you tap a spot on the iPad provided and then go back to Roon. It takes 3 seconds to turn on and off.

 

[Joe Whip]

I have now heard the BAACH several times and have had my ears measured and what it does is phenomenal. Fantastic product.

 

[flkin]

Are you and your wife able to listen together satisfactorily, VerdantAudio? I demoed the BACCH system at CAF last year, and while I was impressed, I had a bit of trouble getting past the "solitary" aspect. Did I over-assume there?

From what I gather, if you sit in the center camera tracked position, you get the 3D image. On either side you still get a normal stereo image but not the Bacch 3D image. Behind the center position you can still get some of the 3D image still.

 

[Joe Whip]

That is correct ffkin.

 

[gleeds]

After seeing this thread, I made a booking with MASIS audio for the demonstration of BACCH-SP. I spent around one hour and an half there. There is no exaggeration. It indeeds changes one mind about conventional stereo listening.

The first demonstration is binaural recordings of a guy in a cathedral walkings toward you 30 feet away from your right side and whisper to your right ear. The most unreal part is that you hear that guy is really whispering to your right ear. Without the filter, the whispering happening in front of your face. It is not imagination. I switched on and off the filter and the guy whispering switching from right ear to front of face with filter on and off. The demonstration continued with more binaural recordings of some virtual barber shop which demonstrated a barber cutting your hair around your head.

Enough with the binaural recordings, I asked how BACCH-SP works with conventional stereo recordings. The first track is Pink Floyd's Money. With the filter on, the sound of cash register is really happening right next to right and left ears. However, I do not like the effect too much. I understand it may be due to the mixing. However, to me it is not real. You do not go to concert with the music playing to your left and right years. So I asked them to play some chamber music. The track is Bartok String Quartet No.1. With the filter on, you can clearly differentiate first and second violins. Furthermore, the first violin is extended beyond the boundary of the speaker. I asked to bypass the filter. The sound stage collapsed within the speakers and first and second violins mixing with each other. The demonstration continues with more conventional stereo recordings. And indeed BACCH-filter works really well.

However, I found the sound of Sander speakers is very thin and do not have much body. This is not a criticism of BACCH-SP because I hear the same thinness with the filter off. Unfortunately, BACCH-SP requires high directivity speakers to work. My speaker is MBL 101E and the dealer told me that BACCH-SP will not work with MBL 101E.

The best analogy is like the difference between 2D and 3D movie. However, some of the best pictures are from 2D if done it right and it can be very real. And some 3D movies are really poor. I think it is the same for BACCH-SP. It really works well with classical music but to me not so well on some recordings of rock music. Fortunately, you can turn the filter on and off with just a button in iPad.

I want some more demonstration of BACCH-SP with different speakers. I did think the sound from Sander are not very good. But be prepared, it maybe really the future of listening music.

The Sanders is a sit-in-the-sweet spot-only speaker that I love! The imaging was precise in the sweet spot—one could say immaculate. Can you describe how the sweet spot changed with the Bach? That would tell me a lot until I get my ears on a properly set-up Bach-driven system with known speakers. Thanks.

 

[aangen]

The Sanders is a sit-in-the-sweet spot-only speaker that I love! The imaging was precise in the sweet spot—one could say immaculate. Can you describe how the sweet spot changed with the Bach? That would tell me a lot until I get my ears on a properly set-up Bach-driven system with known speakers. Thanks.

The sweet spot will still be the sweet spot. But the soundstage will take on new dimensions, deeper, much wider, more precise locations of each sound source. The sound field will no longer be limited by the size of the room. Every song you have ever heard before will now sound more detailed with more precise definition in the soundstage. Otherwise it is just the same.