What is the threshold (in U$) of diminishing return in high End Audio?

[FrantzM]

Hi

A snipet on my views:

I don't think the theshold is as low as some have made of it: $500 will not cut it, nor will $5000.

On the other end of the spectrum and this is exemplified by some here at the WBF: Past speakers such as theArrakis, XLF/X2, MM7, Q7, Genesis Dragon or 1.2. Or VR11 (to name those few there many others), do you think one of the speakers priced at $500K in Higher FI or similar sites will provide "massive" improvements?

Past amplifiers such as the $140K Lamm or Dartzeel or the 80K Burmester 909 or Pass amplifier in the same "Price range" or any amp you want to plug in? Do you think improvements will be "momentous"?
Past DACs such as the Rossini or Trinity ...


No! They will not (Double negative intentional ).. And we all know it. The reality is that the threshold of small to null is much lower than those lofty priced components.. I would venture that with sufficiently sensitive speaker the smaller Dar Tzeel, Burmester, Pass or whatever will "cut it" .. The Lampi seems to be crushing many DACs while being under $20K , The smaller Lamm is superb while being less than $40K... Just saying and the improvement brought in by an additional 200K would be better served elsewhere, for example a built-for-the-purpose-of-music-reproduction room with all the bells and whistles: Power, Acoustics, Interior decoration. adjoining massage room and sauna

 

[JackD201]

I like that massage room and sauna idea!

 

[audioguy]

I like that massage room and sauna idea!

Me too. For the $200,000 you were going to spend for the next great speaker upgrade [but didn't] , you could pay for a lot of massages, foot rubs, etc.

 

[Gregadd]

Frederick Douglas -You don't al,ways get what you pay for but,you always pay for what you get.
i purchased a psychedelic light for my dorm room when I was in college. The most expensive part of which would have been the motor that caused the colored disc to spin. To keep cost down the designer used the heat from the light bulb. The top of the shade rested on a needle to keep friction to a minimum. In the top of the shade was a fan . When the hot air rose that was caused by the bulb, it caused the fan to rotate.
You don't always have to spend money.

 

[dallasjustice]

Fredrick Douglas doesn't get enough credit in modern history books. Most folks just know about MLK and a few others from the 60s.

Frederick Douglas -You don't al,ways get what you pay for but,you always pay for what you get.View attachment 25882
i purchased a psychedelic light for my dorm room when I was in college. The most expensive part of which would have been the motor that caused the colored disc to spin. To keep cost down the designer used the heat from the light bulb. The top of the shade rested on a needle to keep friction to a minimum. In the top of the shade was a fan . When the hot air rose that was caused by the bulb, it caused the fan to rotate.
You don't always have to spend money.

 

[DaveC]

What is a diminishing return when one is discussing an audio system and the sound of same?? I would very much like to know the answer to this question...

Exactly...

If looking at it objectively the cheap speakers AJ designed for Pioneer and ELAC cover the frequency range relatively well for a couple hundred bucks and you can find an amp for about the same that will also have decent objective performance. I remember some super cheap Behringer monitors were found to measure extremely well some years ago and they are very inexpensive. Objectively, it's not hard or expensive to get a system with relatively good measurements.

Subjectively, the value one puts on improvements differs from person to person so one man's "that hardly made a difference" is another man's "Wow, that's a night-and-day difference!". For the second person diminishing returns are likely to begin much higher up the financial ladder.

But it's also a luxury market and MSRP at the high end is starting to become a joke... so it's certainly possible to spend money on the image of luxury, fancy casework and industrial design, endangered wood veneers, etc and this adds nothing to the sound quality but might add a lot of value for potential owners who want to put the gear in their living room and want the gear to be presentable and artistic. How do you value that? Again, it's totally subjective.

Personally, it's going to take a speaker that's going to cost $10k+ to make me happy, like a top of the line JBL monitor with a 15" woofer... but in many other "audiophile" brands you'd spend a lot more than that for similar performance that might be subjectively better, but maybe not... There are some speakers for this price range that are hard to beat at any price, the (discontinued) Pioneer S-1EX for $10k, JBL 4367 for $15k, Vapor Joule and Nimbus for $10-$15k, etc.. I think a reasonable argument could be made that these speakers generally take multiples of their price to beat and for me diminishing returns would happen trying to find speakers that are significantly better. For that maybe you need to go to the TAD Ref 1s at nearly $100k or JBL Everest for about the same, etc... For those that have heard the Pioneer S-1EX and the TAD Ref 1s, is it true that the Ref 1s are 10x better? I'm not so sure, certainly seems like diminishing returns to me, but that's just my opinion.

 

[Ron Party]

Me too. For the $200,000 you were going to spend for the next great speaker upgrade [but didn't] , you could pay for a lot of massages, foot rubs, etc.

Chuck, what did you have in mind with the *etc.* part?

 

[Blizzard]

Exactly...

If looking at it objectively the cheap speakers AJ designed for Pioneer and ELAC cover the frequency range relatively well for a couple hundred bucks and you can find an amp for about the same that will also have decent objective performance. I remember some super cheap Behringer monitors were found to measure extremely well some years ago and they are very inexpensive. Objectively, it's not hard or expensive to get a system with relatively good measurements.

Subjectively, the value one puts on improvements differs from person to person so one man's "that hardly made a difference" is another man's "Wow, that's a night-and-day difference!". For the second person diminishing returns are likely to begin much higher up the financial ladder.

But it's also a luxury market and MSRP at the high end is starting to become a joke... so it's certainly possible to spend money on the image of luxury, fancy casework and industrial design, endangered wood veneers, etc and this adds nothing to the sound quality but might add a lot of value for potential owners who want to put the gear in their living room and want the gear to be presentable and artistic. How do you value that? Again, it's totally subjective.

Personally, it's going to take a speaker that's going to cost $10k+ to make me happy, like a top of the line JBL monitor with a 15" woofer... but in many other "audiophile" brands you'd spend a lot more than that for similar performance that might be subjectively better, but maybe not... There are some speakers for this price range that are hard to beat at any price, the (discontinued) Pioneer S-1EX for $10k, JBL 4367 for $15k, Vapor Joule and Nimbus for $10-$15k, etc.. I think a reasonable argument could be made that these speakers generally take multiples of their price to beat and for me diminishing returns would happen trying to find speakers that are significantly better. For that maybe you need to go to the TAD Ref 1s at nearly $100k or JBL Everest for about the same, etc... For those that have heard the Pioneer S-1EX and the TAD Ref 1s, is it true that the Ref 1s are 10x better? I'm not so sure, certainly seems like diminishing returns to me, but that's just my opinion.

Yes the more threatened the species of wood is on the endangered list, the better it will sound. This is a rule of thumb I always go by.

 

[Rodney Gold]

I agree with Keith. any money spent on the room will make a mockery of what is spent on marginal improvements in gear and will leverage it an order of magnitude in terms of what you get out of your gear with the same money