BACCH-SP: The future of high-end audio? Yes.

[msimanyi]

@flkin I just found this:

Apple Mac Mini M1 | Can Be Powered from ANY POWER SOURCE

Our Mikegyver Mac Mini M1 straight from a DC source without using inverters or generators while you are in the Car, RV, Van, Boat, etc.

mikegyver.com

Ignore the reference to M1 in that last link. It's apparently for all the Minis.

 

[flkin]

Yes, @msimanyi that would work great to run the MacMini on DC. Nice find.

 

[flkin]

Here's another option - extend the Mac to use external PCIe cards. I think the Sonnet Echo SE1 is powered by external DC power. Then we can use an audiophile (reclocked) USB card like the Pink Faun Ultra or their v2.

Amazon.com

This option was proposed by someone else sometime back but I dont know if he ended up trying it.

 

[msimanyi]

Here's another option - extend the Mac to use external PCIe cards. I think the Sonnet Echo SE1 is powered by external DC power. Then we can use an audiophile (reclocked) USB card like the Pink Faun Ultra or their v2.

Amazon.com

This option was proposed by someone else sometime back but I dont know if he ended up trying it.

That is interesting! I could be convinced to try it...

Who makes the best "audio grade" USB card? I've heard of Pink Faun, but never read anything about their products. It's especially appealing if the power is external...

 

[msimanyi]

Then we can use an audiophile (reclocked) USB card like the Pink Faun Ultra or their v2

I reached out to Pink Faun. They only provide their cards for use in their Pink Faun servers, so that's apparently not an option. (Even if they might be functional stand-alone, I can't confirm if they're compatible with MacOS.)

So it seems the only option might be the JCAT USB XE. Are you aware of any others?

 

[flkin]

Pink Faun ultra card is only sold to owners of their Ultra streamer. I happen to be in good terms with them and managed to get one to for my 2.16x when it was first launched. A Sota good sounding card and should work in any PCIe slot. If the Sonnet extender actually does what it says it should work.

They do have their v2 card which is sold to the public and is the replacement of their v1/OCXO card. I also have this card and it is a step up from the v1/OCXO. Doesn’t have an OCXO clock extension but uses an updated ASM3142 chip with a 40MHz clock instead of the usual 20MHz one normal for USB.

This v2 card also sounds very good and IMO suitable for this experiment. The only other thing is to get Prof. Edgar to confirm his Bacch4Mac software can play to a soundcard. I’m guessing it’s possible.

 

[msimanyi]

A little more due diligence makes sense.

Unfortunately none of the Pink Faun cards are available for sale to non-owners. Even if I *could* get my hands on a used version, there's likely a driver issue within MacOS, unless pure luck happens.

At least with the JCAT board, they specifically state it's compatible with Windows, Linux and MacOS. That board *has* to be an improvement over Apple's USB ports built into the Mini.

 

[flkin]

I lent my Pink Faun USB v2 card to a friend running Windows/Audirvana and that worked fine. My system is Linux based under Euphony and is also working normally. I don’t have any experience with a MacOS system however.

The Pink Faun v2 card is available for sale through their dealers to anyone. Only their Ultra version is limited to PF owners.

But I get that going with a card that specifically indicates compatibility with Mac is one less thing to worry about for this experiment. If you decide to try, please do let us know how it goes. Good luck!

 

[aangen]

People used to write about using MAC Mini's in their audio system. I used to laugh and laugh. When did Apple get into Audio. And now I rely on them in my systems. The Mini is just fine for what it is asked to do. I fretted over it but lived with it for quite a while with no signs of distress. I stopped thinking about it actually. People sometimes ask how I can tolerate having one in my system. Let alone having it process any and all audio. It is fairly easy. Play music, sit in my chair and smile. If you look at the rest of the components in my system you can see that the Mini is out of place. I can easily listen to the fancy gear without Bacch. I sometimes do, for upwards of 6 to 10 seconds at a time before I switch back to Bacch. If it ruined anything, I would not tolerate it, But it does not. As far as upgrading the power to the mini, many who I know do. Me, not so much.

 

[flkin]

Hey Al, you do have the dedicated Bacch SP ADIO unit alongside the Baach4Mac software right? Have pity on us plebs ..!

Joking aside, how does the sound compare between the dedicated SP ADIO unit and a Mac Mini?

I do enjoy using the Baach4mac running from my Macbook Air M2. I'm already spending more time on this than my original high end stereo setup. The soundstage and engagement is good but I feel the tightness, blackness and timing of the sound can be improved. I think a good USB output can help with this from my previous experiments with USB PCIe cards, a good one can really make a big difference, thus the Sonnet PCIe extension box exploration.

 

[aangen]

Hey Al, you do have the dedicated Bacch SP ADIO unit alongside the Baach4Mac software right? Have pity on us plebs ..!

Joking aside, how does the sound compare between the dedicated SP ADIO unit and a Mac Mini?

I do enjoy using the Baach4mac running from my Macbook Air M2. I'm already spending more time on this than my original high end stereo setup. The soundstage and engagement is good but I feel the tightness, blackness and timing of the sound can be improved. I think a good USB output can help with this from my previous experiments with USB PCIe cards, a good one can really make a big difference, thus the Sonnet PCIe extension box exploration.

The Bacch4Mac is very pleasing. I bought the adio first. But it had to go to the shop for an upgrade so I bought the Bacch4Mac so I wouldn't die while it was gone. The B4M is wonderful. But the adio is a whole other thing. Edgar uses different power for it, And the DAC is a winner. My favorite after trying many. The adio is worth every penny. I wanted to learn about the B4M anyway. I got ORC six months early with it. (The adio had to wait). But it has been in its case since the adio returned. I borrow it to people who need to know.

 

[flkin]

An update to share.

My Bacch4mac Audiophile edition is loaded into a Macbook Air. Various reasons but mainly because it runs on DC, no fans, has screen and keyboard built-in. This makes it easy to move around different systems.

But USB output from a Macbook Air isn't considered audiophile, it's just a computer undergoing huge computations especially (I'm guessing) with the real time head tracking function where filters are constantly being calculated and integrated into the music file and often at high resolution. It is also where I placed my Roon Core at to get a more direct output into the Bacch software. A lot of things are happening in the hardware so the USB output from the Mac isn't optimised in the audiophile sense of a streamer.

Earlier, I considered expanding the Mac with the Sonnet Echo Express SE1 external PCIe box which may allow me to use an audiophile USB card and power it via DC externally. This is still on the table but for now, I wanted to test the idea of a cleaner Bacch USB signal and whether this would be audible in the first place.

From previous generations of hifi experiments, I have lying around a SOtM tx-USBUltra (TX) and an Uptone IsoRegen (IR). Both devices are pretty famous for 'clean/improve' USB signals by galvanically isolating, regenerating and reclocking the USB signal. Past experience, confirmed with current listening tests, the optimal arrangement is to use both devices in series in the following way:

Macbook Air --> Habst Ultra III USB cable -->
IsoRegen @9v, --> Uptone 2 inch USB connector/cable with vBus 5V cut -->
tx-USBUltra @9v, reclocked with Cybershaft OP-14 10MHz OCXO clock --> QSAL GI USB cable -->
DAC

Both IR and TX are powered by a shared Paul Hynes DR7t+ rail through a QSAL GI DC cable and Y connector.



The above final combination, after trying many different arrangements, clearly sounds the best and is a significant improvement to the Macbook Air output to DAC direct. The sound is clearly more audiophile in all the usual ways - tighter, easier to hear ambient sounds, better bass and more real sounding. Vocals has a more 3D effect in space. This is in addition to the crosstalk removal advantage that Bacch offers of a wider soundstage, emotional and closer to the music presentation. I am somewhat surprised at the strength of this effect since the Bacch setup allows for ORC which should reduce system and room defects already but it seems that this alone isn't enough, the benefits of adding the TX and IR cleaning devices still have a strong effect on the overall result.

This Sunday, I have an audiophile visiting to hear this latest arrangement. He is acquainted with my previous direct Bacch Mac to DAC sound and should be able to confirm the changes I am hearing. If all goes well, I will explore putting my Pink Faun Ultra USB card into the Sonnet box as an extension to the Macbook to push this even further. This PF card is double width taking up 2 standard PCIe slots so I'm not sure if it will fit. Getting a sample Sonnet box in this part of the world just to try and test isn't easy!

My favourite PF Ultra USB card below. I have to find a way to use this with the Bacch system!

 

[flkin]

Ok, my audiophile friend came by and listened to my Bacch setup with the USB cleaners in place and compared it with his previous listening session a week before.

He confirms a clear difference the USB cleaners were making to the sound he heard. It mostly coincides with my experience as well.

Previously his comments about the Bacch sound when compared to Stereo was:

- Sounding more like being at the venue, less of an audience/performer listening structure
- More engaging to the music and performers without having to turn volume up
- Character of BACCH sound is more real and correct. Venue and image sizes more akin to live recordings with images naturally falling into the right places. Less effort needed to imagine the soundstage
- Vocals more 3D than from stereo
- Of all of the past 4 years of changes to the system, the Bacch has changed the sound the most

His comments after the added USB cleaners :

- more texture in the music
- more real sounding with more ambient sounds
- tighter bass

Amongst the few dozen tracks we tried, here are some he commented :

- Limehouse Blues, Jazz at the Pawnshop DSD512. Outstanding instrument positioning in complex music. Bacch gets the venue size more correct.
- The Sky is crying, Audiophile Analogue Col Vol 2, 3D vocal
- Best Part (feat. H.E.R), soundstage in pop music
- Wang Feng 北京北京 (Beijing Beijing), like attending a live rock concert


Stampen, Stockholm where Jazz at the Pawnshop was recorded.


The spacial audio that Bacch filters offer really shows how much stereo is an old format. Stereo is limited to how much the brain can decode the music info when crosstalk distortion levels per ear are at 50%. And when this distortion is removed, suddenly real music appears.

My basic Macbook (even with the attempts at improving the USB output) doesn't sound nearly as good as my dedicated Pink Faun streamer but when the crosstalk distortion is removed, the result is already more engaging than the best stereo and worth thinking how to push this further.

 

[aangen]

Ok, my audiophile friend came by and listened to my Bacch setup with the USB cleaners in place and compared it with his previous listening session a week before.

He confirms a clear difference the USB cleaners were making to the sound he heard. It mostly coincides with my experience as well.

Previously his comments about the Bacch sound when compared to Stereo was:

- Sounding more like being at the venue, less of an audience/performer listening structure
- More engaging to the music and performers without having to turn volume up
- Character of BACCH sound is more real and correct. Venue and image sizes more akin to live recordings with images naturally falling into the right places. Less effort needed to imagine the soundstage
- Vocals more 3D than from stereo
- Of all of the past 4 years of changes to the system, the Bacch has changed the sound the most

His comments after the added USB cleaners :

- more texture in the music
- more real sounding with more ambient sounds
- tighter bass

Amongst the few dozen tracks we tried, here are some he commented :

- Limehouse Blues, Jazz at the Pawnshop DSD512. Outstanding instrument positioning in complex music. Bacch gets the venue size more correct.
- The Sky is crying, Audiophile Analogue Col Vol 2, 3D vocal
- Best Part (feat. H.E.R), soundstage in pop music
- Wang Feng 北京北京 (Beijing Beijing), like attending a live rock concert

View attachment 147194
Stampen, Stockholm where Jazz at the Pawnshop was recorded.


The spacial audio that Bacch filters offer really shows how much stereo is an old format. Stereo is limited to how much the brain can decode the music info when crosstalk distortion levels per ear are at 50%. And when this distortion is removed, suddenly real music appears.

My basic Macbook (even with the attempts at improving the USB output) doesn't sound nearly as good as my dedicated Pink Faun streamer but when the crosstalk distortion is removed, the result is already more engaging than the best stereo and worth thinking how to push this further.

I am curious. My BACCH-SP ADIO cannot play any DSD files without converting them to PCM somewhere along the way. You are feeding DSD512 to a BACCH device? And it works? How? Edgar does not support DSD at all with BACCH. And anything above 24.96 PCM makes the BACCH processing way more difficult for small, if any gain. Curious.

I love the idea of BACCH4MAC on a Macbook!

 

[flkin]

Hi Al, nope the Mac has the same limitation as the SP. The output isn’t matched to the file resolution and also can’t play DSD. Everything is either upsampled or downsampled to whatever output resolution set in the Bacch software.

Bacch claims the sweet spot is at 96KHz so any higher resolution files including my DSD512s will be reduced to this. Still any effort on better mastering made with the higher resolution files would still be an advantage. I suppose if one were using the head tracking function with Bacch filters calculated real time, higher resolution files increases the CPU loading to make the filters realtime which is presumably very high already since my new MacBook battery runs out in a few hours!

For me there are 2 ways to do the 'right' sampling to 96kHz. Either force Roon to output to 96 or let Bacch do it. Don't know which algorithm is better sounding, I still have to experiment on this.

Also one more thing I discovered with Macbook running Baach, I can boot the Mac to SAFE MODE and both Roon core and Bacch4Mac still runs fine! This will remove unnecessary processes and should lead to better sound. Just thought to do this a few days ago and I'm getting good results with this simple trick.

Another one is to stop using head tracking and just have a single fixed filter for Bacch to use. With no realtime calculations nor video monitoring, that should significantly reduce computational overheads. In my case I don't move all that much when listening in my favourite position, the 1-2 inches LR movement allowed without head tracking is enough for me. Again, I have to test this to see how the sound changes and whether the improvement is worth the loss of the head tracking function.

There is also something exciting happening in this space but I'll private message you as it's not for public consumption at this time..

 

[hattrick15]

An update to share.

My Bacch4mac Audiophile edition is loaded into a Macbook Air. Various reasons but mainly because it runs on DC, no fans, has screen and keyboard built-in. This makes it easy to move around different systems.

But USB output from a Macbook Air isn't considered audiophile, it's just a computer undergoing huge computations especially (I'm guessing) with the real time head tracking function where filters are constantly being calculated and integrated into the music file and often at high resolution. It is also where I placed my Roon Core at to get a more direct output into the Bacch software. A lot of things are happening in the hardware so the USB output from the Mac isn't optimised in the audiophile sense of a streamer.

Earlier, I considered expanding the Mac with the Sonnet Echo Express SE1 external PCIe box which may allow me to use an audiophile USB card and power it via DC externally. This is still on the table but for now, I wanted to test the idea of a cleaner Bacch USB signal and whether this would be audible in the first place.

From previous generations of hifi experiments, I have lying around a SOtM tx-USBUltra (TX) and an Uptone IsoRegen (IR). Both devices are pretty famous for 'clean/improve' USB signals by galvanically isolating, regenerating and reclocking the USB signal. Past experience, confirmed with current listening tests, the optimal arrangement is to use both devices in series in the following way:

Macbook Air --> Habst Ultra III USB cable -->
IsoRegen @9v, --> Uptone 2 inch USB connector/cable with vBus 5V cut -->
tx-USBUltra @9v, reclocked with Cybershaft OP-14 10MHz OCXO clock --> QSAL GI USB cable -->
DAC

Both IR and TX are powered by a shared Paul Hynes DR7t+ rail through a QSAL GI DC cable and Y connector.

View attachment 146936View attachment 146940

The above final combination, after trying many different arrangements, clearly sounds the best and is a significant improvement to the Macbook Air output to DAC direct. The sound is clearly more audiophile in all the usual ways - tighter, easier to hear ambient sounds, better bass and more real sounding. Vocals has a more 3D effect in space. This is in addition to the crosstalk removal advantage that Bacch offers of a wider soundstage, emotional and closer to the music presentation. I am somewhat surprised at the strength of this effect since the Bacch setup allows for ORC which should reduce system and room defects already but it seems that this alone isn't enough, the benefits of adding the TX and IR cleaning devices still have a strong effect on the overall result.

This Sunday, I have an audiophile visiting to hear this latest arrangement. He is acquainted with my previous direct Bacch Mac to DAC sound and should be able to confirm the changes I am hearing. If all goes well, I will explore putting my Pink Faun Ultra USB card into the Sonnet box as an extension to the Macbook to push this even further. This PF card is double width taking up 2 standard PCIe slots so I'm not sure if it will fit. Getting a sample Sonnet box in this part of the world just to try and test isn't easy!

My favourite PF Ultra USB card below. I have to find a way to use this with the Bacch system!

View attachment 146941

What is the purpose of the two low-pass filters? And what are the part numbers for each filter?

 

[flkin]

What is the purpose of the two low-pass filters? And what are the part numbers for each filter?

Clocks come in 2 flavors - square wave and sine wave. These low cost, low pass filters is a John Swenson trick to improve the performance of sine wave clocks. In addition, since BNC clock cables affect the sound quite a bit, these filters also help with impedance matching. Two in series seems to have a slight improvement over just one.

Read the explanation here. The entire 6 page thread is worth reading if you’re into clocks.

The filter brand is the mini-Circuits BLP-10.7+ LOW PASS FLTR. The second one is optional but I use the Crystek LCPFL-0010-BNC. Both 10MHz. They both do the same thing.

Best, Kin

 

[flkin]

Please note is this low pass filter trick only works for Sine wave clocks. Eg Mutec clocks are square wave so it won’t work here. Cybershaft and SOtM clocks are sine wave so the filters will work here.

And select the correct impedance for the filter - 50 or 75ohm for good measure. For Sine wave clocks both 50/75 ohm will still work fine as sine wave clocks are not sensitive to mismatched impedances but it’s best to stick with the correct ohm anyway.

 

[hattrick15]

Please note is this low pass filter trick only works for Sine wave clocks. Eg Mutec clocks are square wave so it won’t work here. Cybershaft and SOtM clocks are sine wave so the filters will work here.

And select the correct impedance for the filter - 50 or 75ohm for good measure. For Sine wave clocks both 50/75 ohm will still work fine as sine wave clocks are not sensitive to mismatched impedances but it’s best to stick with the correct ohm anyway.

Extremely helpful info in your last two posts. Much appreciated.