What is the threshold (in U$) of diminishing return in high End Audio?

[TheMadMilkman]

$500.

I know of a $500 all in set up that is an audiophile result with good musicality. When non-audiophiles hear it they comment on how good it sounds unprompted and start asking what it costs usually thinking it is more expensive than it is.

Surely you can spill the beans on what the $500 setup is. People think I'm nuts for having a $3,000 setup (which is a pittance compared to others on this forum), but do often ask how much they would have to spend to have a good stereo. It would be nice to have a default recommendation in that price range.

 

[garylkoh]

I think the best way to do it is to have the manufacturer support a shoutout tour. Several years ago YG bought a pair of Magico speakers and toured the US with them. I am not sure how many YG speakers were sold but it's a good piece of marketing if you can back it up. It could also work well in a hotel ballroom at one of the audio shows.

I think that would make it extremely difficult to be impartial.

Several years ago, I borrowed some source equipment for CES. One thing led to another and we had an unofficial shoot-out. I ended up being accused by one of the manufacturers of setting up his component to fail. Never the mind that it was a SOURCE component and if I set it up badly, it would be the sound in my room (and my loudspeakers) that would be the loser!

Since then, I haven't borrowed anything that I am not absolutely sure would work with my speakers - and it has ended up with having to have to design, build and bring everything from soup to the cheese platter.

 

[Gregadd]

Buying YG because it's better than Magico is a whole different ball of wax. Suppose Wilson brought YG?

 

[esldude]

Surely you can spill the beans on what the $500 setup is. People think I'm nuts for having a $3,000 setup (which is a pittance compared to others on this forum), but do often ask how much they would have to spend to have a good stereo. It would be nice to have a default recommendation in that price range.

What I had in mind: JBL LSR305 speakers. Regularly available for $260/pr. Sometimes a bit less. Driven by an Emotiva XDA-1 DAC. I see the XDA isn't available now. It was good, both because it sounded surprisingly nice while having balanced outputs. Connection to the JBLs which are active speakers was easy. I suppose I was cheating a bit as you still need a source, but the XDA had USB and your usual other inputs. A phone, tablet or computer could be used and nearly everyone already has one of those. Currently there are other USB capable DACs available to keep the price to $500 though I haven't heard them. Emotiva makes a Big Ego for $219 which is 32/384 capable with multiple filter options. No hands on experience, but I am guessing it would do the job nicely.

So for $5-600 you have plenty of options to net audiophile sound quality normal people aren't accustomed to hearing. Improvements from there on up get expensive for increasingly small differences. I haven't heard them, but Emotiva makes a nice speaker getting good reports from lots of people for $299/pr also active no amp needed. Measurements in the Stereopile review certainly look rather nice for so little money. ELAC speakers are available in that price also getting excellent reports. So the bottom end of what is quite good in the modern world is not that expensive. Adding a decent subwoofer to these kinds of speakers moves them further up the ladder of sound quality.

 

[Joe Whip]

Personally, my limit is $10k. A damn good system that would keep most people happy can be had for well under that amount as well.

 

[TheMadMilkman]

Okay, I see where you're going.

I haven't heard them yet, but I'm very curious to listen to the AudioEngine HD6. Single power cable for the pair, with a built-in wireless amp and dac. For $749 it may very well be an ideal all-in-one setup. I'm hoping they have a room at RMAF this year.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

What I had in mind: JBL LSR305 speakers. Regularly available for $260/pr. Sometimes a bit less. Driven by an Emotiva XDA-1 DAC. I see the XDA isn't available now. It was good, both because it sounded surprisingly nice while having balanced outputs. Connection to the JBLs which are active speakers was easy. I suppose I was cheating a bit as you still need a source, but the XDA had USB and your usual other inputs. A phone, tablet or computer could be used and nearly everyone already has one of those. Currently there are other USB capable DACs available to keep the price to $500 though I haven't heard them. Emotiva makes a Big Ego for $219 which is 32/384 capable with multiple filter options. No hands on experience, but I am guessing it would do the job nicely.

So for $5-600 you have plenty of options to net audiophile sound quality normal people aren't accustomed to hearing. Improvements from there on up get expensive for increasingly small differences. I haven't heard them, but Emotiva makes a nice speaker getting good reports from lots of people for $299/pr also active no amp needed. Measurements in the Stereopile review certainly look rather nice for so little money. ELAC speakers are available in that price also getting excellent reports. So the bottom end of what is quite good in the modern world is not that expensive. Adding a decent subwoofer to these kinds of speakers moves them further up the ladder of sound quality.

Wow. Even I haven't had the guts to suggest LSR305s in this forum. Well done. Hell, match them up with a nice pair of subs, put it all in something that looks like the fender of a '55 Lincoln, and take them to an audio show. They'd probably be well-received.

It is a great source of frustration for me that JBL has not yet taken their new waveguide technology to an active series between the 3 and the M2. I need an active, LSR705i, with built-in room correction. I need it badly.

Tim

 

[esldude]

It is a great source of frustration for me that JBL has not yet taken their new waveguide technology to an active series between the 3 and the M2. I need an active, LSR705i, with built-in room correction. I need it badly.

Tim

Plus one on that in between model. I could use it, and know a number of people who would be ready in that market range.

Harman claims they test and ensure each product is the best (by their criteria) in its market segment. I don't know if the current offerings do that so they are waiting on the market to catch up or what is the hold up.

PS-
If you haven't heard the LSR305 with a woofer or two, it helps out for a quite worthwhile improvement.

 

[caesar]

Hi

This thread in inspired by the recent "$5,000 system to obliterate $30,000 system" type of thread we have recently seen on the WBF. It is my contention that there is a threshold beyond which progression/impovemnt virtually stop and we start going sideways.I IOW different flavors but IMO and sometimes IME, improvements are minimal to nil.
What do you think is that threshold in term of investments in components only? I have put aside for now the ever important listening environment.
Waiting for your input

Frantz, we discussed this several times. Here's a more intellectual explanation:
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...-on-investment&p=251752&viewfull=1#post251752

But from a more practical point of view, the market determines the threshold. Once the speaker no longer sells, manufacturer comes out with something different.

if you like the wilson flavor, there is the xlf for $200k, maxx for roughly half of that, alexia at half of that at $50K, sasha is about $25K, and sophia is about half of that. If you have the magico taste, Q7 at $200K is the best alon can do. at roughly half of that, you get the q5, at half of that you get q3....

Just pick your flavor and the price you can afford, and the manufacturer is there to accommodate you.

 

[dallasjustice]

Frantz, we discussed this several times. Here's a more intellectual explanation:
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...-on-investment&p=251752&viewfull=1#post251752

But from a more practical point of view, the market determines the threshold

The market only determines the price paid. The market cannot determine performance. What others are willing to pay for something does not answer the OP's question. The question has to do with performance at a certain price.

Michael.

 

[Jinjuku]

I've been there on the Audiophile amp end of things with Adcom, Parasound, Rotel, Carver. So about $600-$800 from my direct experience. I currently run Crown XLS Drive Core. There are a lot of happy people with that line up. Even people driving their highly modded Polk SDA's TL's.

On the DAC side $500-$1000 is the extreme point of no real value returned for the investment SQ wise. Femto DAC's? I've now listened to several and they are a solution with no problem to solve. The variable costs in DAC's in the range I specified is all about connectivity and features in addition to SQ. Really like the TEAC UD-301 and 501. Emotiva DC-1, Focusrite Forte, and the Oppo HA-1.

On speakers I've found that about the $5-8$ mark hit a point of diminishing returns.

Cables? I may have $100 in cabling. All Belden for the speakers (and some MIT EXP2 that I tried on a whim). Monoprice Mic cable for the line level stuff (all balanced). Monoprices mic cable is well constructed. 99% braided copper shield with drain wire and I believe 18AWG conductors. Certainly wasn't outperformed by AQ King Cobra XLR's.

If I need XLR's in a pinch it's Guitar Center and Mogami. Their stuff stands up to abuse.

 

[Gregadd]

I've been there on the Audiophile amp end of things with Adcom, Parasound, Rotel, Carver. So about $600-$800 from my direct experience. I currently run Crown XLS Drive Core. There are a lot of happy people with that line up. Even people driving their highly modded Polk SDA's TL's.

On the DAC side $500-$1000 is the extreme point of no real value returned for the investment SQ wise. Femto DAC's? I've now listened to several and they are a solution with no problem to solve. The variable costs in DAC's in the range I specified is all about connectivity and features in addition to SQ. Really like the TEAC UD-301 and 501. Emotiva DC-1, Focusrite Forte, and the Oppo HA-1.

On speakers I've found that about the $5-8$ mark hit a point of diminishing returns.

Cables? I may have $100 in cabling. All Belden for the speakers (and some MIT EXP2 that I tried on a whim). Monoprice Mic cable for the line level stuff (all balanced). Monoprices mic cable is well constructed. 99% braided copper shield with drain wire and I believe 18AWG conductors. Certainly wasn't outperformed by AQ King Cobra XLR's.

If I need XLR's in a pinch it's Guitar Center and Mogami. Their stuff stands up to abuse.

Is $5-$8 a typo?

 

[esldude]

Is $5-$8 a typo?

I believe $5-8k was the intended result.

 

[Jinjuku]

Yep... $5-8K

 

[rockitman]

Everyone's threshold is different depending on their economic mobility and interest in the hobby.

 

[Jinjuku]

Everyone's threshold is different depending on their economic mobility and interest in the hobby.

It could also be based on direct experience.

I've had $4000 amps, $300 cables etc... in my stack at one point or another.

 

[Don C]

Around $50K IMO. Some used or purchased at discount.

The cost of my system.

I get all the sonic qualities claimed by "big buck" system owners IMO.

I have heard many more expensive systems in homes, shows, and at dealers over the last 40 years.

I no longer list my entire system on the forums, due to "snide" remarks, and other posters opinions that I do not care about.

I do own Pass Labs amps, Magnepan speakers, and STAX headphones.

 

[Andrew Stenhouse]

Everyone's threshold is different depending on their economic mobility and interest in the hobby.

I agree wholeheartedly with this.

 

[esldude]

While I agree with the idea it is related to each person's economic status in their personal choice, I think my earlier point that returns are diminishing at a quite low level are worth noting more than is usual. The curve is very steep in subjective terms, and steeper still in objective terms.

Where is the threshold in objective terms? (this is for in room or actually in ear results for the total system) I would say 50 or maybe 60 hz to around 10 khz on the frequency response. Why those numbers? I would say the majority of recordings have nothing to speak of below 50 hz. And little to matter above 10 khz. Past each end with most recordings you would notice nothing different to almost nothing different. With additional performance you will notice a little benefit and more than a little with unusually good recordings. Less than those numbers and even regular everyday normal people will hear it obviously different even if they don't fully know why even if they regularly listen to systems with less than that.

In loudness I think you need at least peak abilities of 100 db. While staying pretty clean (clean being 1% THD in room). In terms of signal to noise, I think you need 70 db to be considered an audiophile system.

So in many ways this is a modest envelope of performance. 50hz-10khz, with 1% THD and IMD, capable of 100 db peaks and 70 db SNR. Such a system would not miss very much at all with the great majority of recordings. Even those excellent recordings would be played enjoyably in a way most non-audiophile systems don't manage. Doing justice to the few excellent recordings and moving beyond these parameters is where the very steep curve of diminishing returns kick in, and yet basic audiophile level goodness has been achieved.

This is Whats Best and not Whats Minimally Barely Enough. So I am sure many will look at these metrics and think I am being ridiculous. If so, it might be instructive to listen to digital files of excellent recordings, and compare the raw file to one that has been filtered/altered to simply meet my metrics. It would be a good illustration of what your extraordinary gear has managed for you. I think it would surprise some how enjoyable the filtered file could sound. I think you might be reminded of lesser gear that still can offer unusual musical enjoyment over many pieces of recorded music. And it would highlight how incredibly good some of your gear is all the same.

Finally, the $500 system I described earlier in the thread exceeds all of these metrics I propose.

 

[audioguy]

I almost said that, Keith, but I've said it so many times before and almost no one listens. What was the target? $5k. In a normal domestic listening environment, at reasonable listening levels, using pro audio (active monitors/subs) and a good, but not nervosa-obsessive digital front end, one should be able to achieve something very close to SOTA for $5k.

Tim

If that room includes room treatment, then I would agree with you.