Why would larger arms vibrate more?
Anything with the same material will vibrate more with length. It is just simple physics.
Why would larger arms vibrate more?
Anything with the same material will vibrate more with length. It is just simple physics.
There is a strong market for 12" arm, so ........
All arm wands vibrates when in use. We cannot eliminate it. It comes from the stylus riding on the groove. I just want to point out wand vibration affects the sound more than tracking error.
The upcoming TechDAS Air Force Zero uses a 16" platter, 12" arm is the shortest possible length for it. This is, I guess, is the reason for a 12" SAT arm, i.e. to be used in Air Force Zero.
I am not saying 12" arm is bad, I said 12" has more resonance which can be good for some situations but it reduces resolution.
Tracking error is not that critical, otherwise we will notice difference in sound from outer tracks to inner tracks.
Anything with the same material will vibrate more with length. It is just simple physics.
Tracking error is not that critical, otherwise we will notice difference in sound from outer tracks to inner tracks.
David, you are right. I have not compared 9" and 12" SAT arm. Love to, but it is not on the market yet.
I have talked to Marc and he explained his theory. Marc was not an audiophile to begin with. He was an engineer. He looked at the mechanical requirement of a tonearm. If 12" is the shortest length of tonearm for Air Force Zero, he is trying to make the best possible 12" arm for it. Only 50 Air Force Zero will be made. There were only 70 pieces of original 9" SAT arm made. So 50 arms for Zero is not a small market.
His theory is simple, at least I can understand as a layman. Provided everything being equal, a shorter arm is more likely to sound better because of higher resolution. To me the largest tracking error comes from the swing of the arm, not the length of it.
"The invention of the 12” tonearm was believed to address the issue of ‘tracking error’ heard by marginally reducing the tracking angle error with the increased length of the arm. You can see below why that’s not really the case! The only contribution of the 12” arm is actually to increase the pressure on the stylus/cantilever/suspension to direct the arm to where it needs to go. This causes unnecessary deflections and excessive low frequency movement of the stylus/cantilever while doing their job."
I owe all who have participated in this thread an apology to the extent that this territory has been plowed before and perhaps I should have done a search http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?9295-Oh-no-MF-is-not-a-fan-of-12-quot-arms!
That said, I see that there is no scientifically convincing answer. I think it is safe to say that no arm design, even tangential arms, are perfect. From there, we can perhaps agree that 9" arms can be engineered to be incredibly good but so can 12" arms. I believe that Mikey is wrong to imply that the best 9" arms are inherently superior to otherwise equivalently designed 12" arms. Am I the only one to notice that Mikey is anti-resonance in every way when it comes to his choice of loudspeakers (Wilson) and electronics (solid state) and his beloved (if not outdated) Continuum Caliburn deck sports an 84 lb platter on several hundred pound plinth and stand and in that regard hales from the same camp as his engineer editor, JA, and yet he loves and champions the most resonant of all playback technologies? In that regard, he is a self-conflicted enigma. I have always noticed that while he has great ears, great writing ability, and knows a ton about table set-up, he is neither formally trained nor even demonstrates much of an innate understanding of engineering. He is prone to repeating design and engineering aspects that were told to him or that he has read pertaining to whatever he happens to be reviewing at the time. And most important of all, for better or worse he is a listener who dissects, describes and rates products based upon all of the well-worn audiophile categories of performance rather than the overall gestalt of sound. Whereas Art Dudley and Herb Reichert listen for "the big picture", Mikey takes a magnifying glass to the music and gets out a set of tweezers. Let me know if I am mistaken, but I don't think Mr. Fremer has ever sung the praises of SPU's for example. Why is this relevant? Well, in my estimation 12" arms and SPU's are capable of producing incredibly intoxicating renditions of real music rather than renditions that satisfy all the audiophile blather that Mikey finds so attractive. Mr. Fremer's move from Sonus Faber Stradivari to Wilsons and from the tubed Manley Steelhead to uber-priced solid state Ypsilon is symbolic.
Some of you here are among the analog elite of the audiophile higher end.
I'm ready to be educated.
I posted that article from Mono And Stereo because not only was it relevant with the tonearms's length but also because it was seriously written and included some of the top analog audio guns in the industry.
Is it the ultimate definition? No, as David remarked, and as Peter is questioning as a scientist explorer on a quest to turntabling expression.
And it's not about Michael Fremer the man, but about what the man says. Is he the absolute authority with the last words? No, he's an audio reviewer in constant experimental ground, a searcher, like John Wayne.
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Vertere Reference Tonearm
View attachment 41202
In the latest issue of S'Phile Mikey, in the course of reviewing the 9" version of the Kuzma 4Point arm, declares the inherent superiority of 9" arms on the basis of less moment of inertia and higher rigidity. He has made such references in the past. I have no doubt he believes this but I am surprised that he cites to theoretical aspects only, and that his beliefs defy the historical collective consciousness of thousands of vinyl enthusiasts. I fully understand and accept that errors in cartridge alignment become magnified with a 12" arm but the difference that 1.5 or 3 inches of tonearm can make in relative moment of inertia would seem minuscule and Mikey's citation to stereo grooves and horizontal and vertical compliance causing minimum moment of inertia to be critical regardless of how flat the record is seems far-fetched. In my. case, I just ordered a 12" Reed 3P in cocobo from the importer and while talking to him, I was informed that he can't recall the last time he sold the 9" version of that arm and he frankly has no idea why Mr. Triukas even offers the 9" since the 10.5 and 12 far outperform it. I have no regrets going with the 12". For starters, a 9" will not accept an outer ring and I use one. But my question is; is Mikey as wrong as I think he is?
I don't know the article OP is referring to but I'd be very surprised if Fremer made such a universal claim about 9" arms, vibration, arm rigidity, etc..
david
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