Zu loudspeakers

[spiritofmusic]

I can't really contribute much to the whole vintage drivers thing, or the dodgy measurements area. All I can say is that in my experience Zus get closer to what I've heard from those more advanced transducers I really like which at first glance don't resemble Zu at all, and are far away from those I don't like, but on the surface seem to have more in common with.

So despite Zus being box spkrs w cones, they're closer in spirit to the best horns I've heard than the so-called best multi driver behemoth towers I've experienced.

Despite these behemoths being boxes w cones like Zu and the horns not being boxes & not w cones.

And this is in the areas of coherence, seamlessness, texture, tonal density and, esp now w my recent changes, realistic timbre.

But before my horns-owning and -loving compatriots haul me over the coals, I'm not saying Zus sound remotely like horns. Just that if you don't warm to the market in multi driver spkrs, and you lean twds horns, Zu will tick more boxes than you might imagine.

 

[caesar]

I can't really contribute much to the whole vintage drivers thing, or the dodgy measurements area. All I can say is that in my experience Zus get closer to what I've heard from those more advanced transducers I really like which at first glance don't resemble Zu at all, and are far away from those I don't like, but on the surface seem to have more in common with.

So despite Zus being box spkrs w cones, they're closer in spirit to the best horns I've heard than the so-called best multi driver behemoth towers I've experienced.

Despite these behemoths being boxes w cones like Zu and the horns not being boxes & not w cones.

And this is in the areas of coherence, seamlessness, texture, tonal density and, esp now w my recent changes, realistic timbre.

But before my horns-owning and -loving compatriots haul me over the coals, I'm not saying Zus sound remotely like horns. Just that if you don't warm to the market in multi driver spkrs, and you lean twds horns, Zu will tick more boxes than you might imagine.

I never thought of Zu as box speakers. Guys like "Superior to the Almighty" Alon Wolf and Wilsons have invested hundreds of thousands in their enclosures. And I am sure their enclosures measure better than Zu's enclosures. But Zu don't sound like box speakers!

I just heard the new Magico M2 at Axpona driven by CH Precision. FUKKING STERILE! And on top of that, one could hear each driver separate from the other. The Magico tweeter spoke with its own tizzy voice, agitating the music. While their woofer was tissy. No balls. So no, Zu is not your typical box speaker.

 

[bonzo75]

I never thought of Zu as box speakers. Guys like "Superior to the Almighty" Alon Wolf and Wilsons have invested hundreds of thousands in their enclosures. And I am sure their enclosures measure better than Zu's enclosures. But Zu don't sound like box speakers!

I just heard the new Magico M2 at Axpona driven by CH Precision. FUKKING STERILE! And on top of that, one could hear each driver separate from the other. The Magico tweeter spoke with its own tizzy voice, agitating the music. While their woofer was tissy. No balls. So no, Zu is not your typical box speaker.

Alon had invested in aluminium enclosures. Read he changed it to carbon for M2 and M6? Is he pushing the envelope or one/both of these was/is a mistake

 

[caesar]

Hearing a few other single driver and horn speakers at Axpona, along with the DeVores again, it makes sense to me why Zu has the Druid 6. The others are much more transparent on jazz, and especially on classical than Druid 5.

 

[caesar]

Alon had invested in aluminium enclosures. Read he changed it to carbon for M2 and M6? Is he pushing the envelope or one/both of these was/is a mistake

Apparently so. He's always fiddling with something, trying to get people to upgrade and reinforcing their brand image of being on the cutting edge of technology. But it hasn't always worked.

I always hated the sound of magico, other than their wooden stand-mounted speakers, which I think are excellent, but obviously aren't integrated as well as single driver speakers.

I also have always hated Magico the arrogance and superiority of the Magico brand. Along with the "oooh magico, ahhh magico" kiss assery and lackery from TAS and other reviewers who want a long term loan or a deeply discounted price.

Magico has also formed a strong association with the magazine / marketing side of the hobby, which so many find disgusting...

Further analysis here: https://whatsbestforum.com/threads/magico-m6-on-tas.24443/page-5#post-485140

But their M3 with the fuller MSB amps and $125K worth of MSB DACs, playing the best CDs that exist (as picked by Vince from MSB) sounded fine at the last Axpona. Yet the same "Dream with Dean" sounded so much better on vinyl on Stenheim with Einstein OTLs.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Hey Caesar, you're talking my language. After sorting a 2 year period of my analog rig misfire stymying my Zus, things really open now.

It's really refreshing to hear ONE solitary extra voice on WBF praise them. Indeed two, w you and SETDrugs. In fact you've both helped to wake me up from a little self doubt that had crept in.

So when every post on Zu in the past attracted opinions I should junk them for any number of other options (whereas noone would consider telling Magico and Wilson etc owners to move on), I'd have to have a totally thick skin to completely ignore.

But the double whammy of both of your (and SETD's) super positive words about Zu, and my late late refreshing (via analog) of what makes them so compelling, has got me fully back in the groove w them, also discovering that they can do things I was struggling to fully achieve before, like proper imaging and air, microdynamics and delicacy.

I'm running thru my Wayne Shorter, Herbie Hancock and Freddie Hubbard Blue Note etc vinyl, and getting a proper appreciation for timbral accuracy (useful w two horns in the studio) and walking bass technique, which I never nailed before.

 

[caesar]

A couple of single driver speakers I heard at Axpona were very interesting.

The Polish Nenuphar Cube speakers are completely single driver. Zu has 2. The driver seems larger than what Zu has. Somehow these guys figured out to have a very transparent sound with a single driver. But it costs much more than Zu Druid 6; if one adds exotic car paint finishes on the Druid 6, prices are similar.

The other single driver speaker I heard is from a Scottish company called Fyne Audio. Apparently the famed Tannoy company seems to have left the consumer market, and my understanding is that the Tannoy engineering team has walked and has started this new company called Fyne with a modernized single driver.

The bad news for these engineers is that they didn't bring a marketing guy with them. The room had a large poster of the gorgeous Scottish country side. Not sure how that works from a marketing perspective.?! Who associates Scotland with high end audio? Who associates beautiful scenes of nature with high end audio? I drive scenic roads...I hike... I listen to my system... different activities...

Furthermore, the Fyne website is a disaster. Their products have engineering names like like f1-10, F3, F700, F403, etc. These make sense no one outside their engineering team. How can a visitor figure out their categorization, which is higher end or lower end, and what appeals to what the customer is looking for? They can't!!!!

But the great news is that their speakers driven by (frequently syrupy sounding) Cary were awesome! Not just the best Scotland can do, but world class! I got goose bumps on a number of tracks. Rarely happens in a small hotel room.

Maybe it was a just in the moment thing, but I hope these guys really break out!

 

[caesar]

Hey Caesar, you're talking my language. After sorting a 2 year period of my analog rig misfire stymying my Zus, things really open now.

It's really refreshing to hear ONE solitary extra voice on WBF praise them. Indeed two, w you and SETDrugs. In fact you've both helped to wake me up from a little self doubt that had crept in.

So when every post on Zu in the past attracted opinions I should junk them for any number of other options (whereas noone would consider telling Magico and Wilson etc owners to move on), I'd have to have a totally thick skin to completely ignore.

But the double whammy of both of your (and SETD's) super positive words about Zu, and my late late refreshing (via analog) of what makes them so compelling, has got me fully back in the groove w them, also discovering that they can do things I was struggling to fully achieve before, like proper imaging and air, microdynamics and delicacy.

I'm running thru my Wayne Shorter, Herbie Hancock and Freddie Hubbard Blue Note etc vinyl, and getting a proper appreciation for timbral accuracy (useful w two horns in the studio) and walking bass technique, which I never nailed before.

Nice!!! And I bet if you got a recent version of your favorite DAC, an updated transport (or an old Esoteric like P0S) , and a killer network setup it would also go to the next level.

An additional thought regarding your room... Since it is large, I wonder if you can build a small (possibly, makeshift) wall about 2 feet behind your listening position. SMT recommends about 3 diffusors behind the listener....(Something to possibly play around with to get an extra dopamine rush ) ...

 

[spiritofmusic]

Caesar, did you swing by the Sadurni Acoustics/Wolf/LTA/Berning/Ayre room? They were playing the Sadurni Staccato GT horns. At $33k, a real contender potentially.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Re room changes, well I did consider subdividing, but have declined. My Zus sound at their best 8-9' from front wall, and best sitting position is 14-15' from them. So w my seat now 25' from front wall, that already takes me over half the depth. I fancy running a small home cinema area behind me if I choose not to have a PJ/pull down screen, so decisions on changes to room will have to wait.

I could certainly run a mock up diffusor panel behind me to gauge any effect - I'm due to try out a 9x6 panel of GIK Gotham Quadratic diffusors for front wall. I could certainly try them behind me first.

What is that SMT link? They have a website that's next to useless.

 

[caesar]

Caesar, did you swing by the Sadurni Acoustics/Wolf/LTA/Berning/Ayre room? They were playing the Sadurni Staccato GT horns. At $33k, a real contender potentially.

Yes, I was just about to get to it...interruptions... Jorge Sadurni had his horns playing with the top Ayre DAC and Berning Siegfried OTL amp. Out of all the systems at the show, this system had the most realistic tone. And based on my previous experience, neither OTLs nor Ayre are known for their tone (different for Berning?)...

Somehow Sadurni horns have great tone. Last year his horns had great tone with BAT....

Yet even with Jorge's smaller model of horns, it was too big for the room. Another nit pick is that regular recordings of rock seems to sound better on Zu. Ayre may not be the top-level reference DAC, but is pretty good at making old recordings sound good. But...hard to judge...

My belief is that this hobby is not about the "OR", but about the "AND". Zu AND horns... Zu and omnis.... Zu and non-analytical box speaker like Stenheim...

Zu is unique and no one does what they do!

 

[caesar]

Re room changes, well I did consider subdividing, but have declined. My Zus sound at their best 8-9' from front wall, and best sitting position is 14-15' from them. So w my seat now 25' from front wall, that already takes me over half the depth. I fancy running a small home cinema area behind me if I choose not to have a PJ/pull down screen, so decisions on changes to room will have to wait.

I could certainly run a mock up diffusor panel behind me to gauge any effect - I'm due to try out a 9x6 panel of GIK Gotham Quadratic diffusors for front wall. I could certainly try them behind me first.

What is that SMT link? They have a website that's next to useless.

You can try it. Get a folding table. Put 3 wings on it and see if makes a difference. In my experience this small makes a huge difference. I believe the SMT website has a contact section. Email or call the guy. My understanding is that he is pretty responsive - his passion is great sound and his business depends on it. He should be able to advise you.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Caeasar, I've just had a nice riverside lunch and couple of beers (no stress here 100 miles from busy Central London), so I'm not quite getting yr final paragraph. Can you rephrase it? Not OR but AND???

Re Zus on poorer recordings. Well, Zu is pretty chameleon I'm finding. I'm eeking out real timbre and air and microdynamics on classical and jazz, a revelation.

In the same session I can put on Vapor Trails by Rush, and not have my ears torn off, or a lesson in diffident non music making.

I listened to a top Ares Cerat system recently. Dire Straits buttery texture was just beguiling. But some electronica recorded w ProTools was mercilessly sliced and diced. Here, it sounded totally enjoyable.

The fatal attraction of Zus.

 

[caesar]

Caeasar, I've just had a nice riverside lunch and couple of beers (no stress here 100 miles from busy Central London), so I'm not quite getting yr final paragraph. Can you rephrase it? Not OR but AND???

Re Zus on poorer recordings. Well, Zu is pretty chameleon I'm finding. I'm eeking out real timbre and air and microdynamics on classical and jazz, a revelation.

In the same session I can put on Vapor Trails by Rush, and not have my ears torn off, or a lesson in diffident non music making.

I listened to a top Ares Cerat system recently. Dire Straits buttery texture was just beguiling. But some electronica recorded w ProTools was mercilessly sliced and diced. Here, it sounded totally enjoyable.

The fatal attraction of Zus.

I am envious! I wish I had a couple of pints of that warm British ale and a nice buzz...

What I am saying is that all of these technologies are unique. They all have their strengths and weaknesses, and sound different. I need more than one system. You may also.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Well, Sound Of Tao is deliberating his Harbeths and PAP Horns. Ked loves a fantasy Apogees one end/horns the other, living space.
Then there are the guys running multiple tts, or one tt w multiple arms and carts.
Interestingly, noone running ss AND tubes on one spkr. Or multiple dacs/servers.

 

[bonzo75]

Well, Sound Of Tao is deliberating his Harbeths and PAP Horns. Ked loves a fantasy Apogees one end/horns the other, living space.
Then there are the guys running multiple tts, or one tt w multiple arms and carts.
Interestingly, noone running ss AND tubes on one spkr. Or multiple dacs/servers.

Jazzhead has both Zanden and Vitus, and many CD players and dacs simultaneously. Justin has always had some SS and some tube amp simultaneously. Shane has CJ and dagostino. In fact, many multiple amp owners have both SS and tube

 

[spiritofmusic]

Yep, some adventurous guys out there. More floor space covered in gear than free of gear.

 

[spiritofmusic]

My main remaining tasks to boost the transparency and neutrality gains I'm getting in my system, reflected in my Zus excelling on classical and jazz for the first time ever, is to get my noise floor down a bit more.

I need to play around a little w tubes. I'm v tempted to go down the Mayer/Elrog 211s road, but at £6k for a balanced quad it's a steep entry ticket and my Nat contact is less than helpful in the task of rebiasing the amps.

Some smaller tubes in the pre could do w changing, my balanced transformer needs to be out of the room, and my Zu subs could be quieter.

If I could make headway on some/all of these, I do believe the Zus would be capable of even more air, shimmer, decay, texture, and delicacy.

The fact I'm even talking about the Zus in these terms is testament to the fact that they've truly become chameleon like, still the eager puppy, happy to please, engrossing and immersive on prog, fusion, electronica, but now hugely communicative and way more "not there" on classical and jazz.

 

[213Cobra]

Fyne is following the Tannoy playbook of using coaxial drivers in their upper speakers. The lower line has woofs and tweets separate. I don't see any true single-driver speakers there. The coaxials have crossovers just like conventional dynamic speakers. They just look FRD if you don't look closely. Now this arrangement is still simpler than something like a multi-way Magico or Wilson, and can sound quite good, in the realm of crossover-based speakers.

Zu are certainly box speakers but they don't sound like it. There are two reasons for this. First, Sean has steadily been working to remove the box acoustically from the equation by a combination of stiffening, resonance suppression and energy routing to ground, so cabinet talk is heading toward vanishingly small. Second, by avoiding crossovers entirely, and centering the music performance on a broadband full range driver covering ~35HZ - 12.5kHz, he eliminates the driver disparities and phase non-linearlies that contribute to you hearing a locally-restricted box. The unity behaviors possible by the Zu FRD in an energy-channeling structure change your perceptions of box speaker sound.

I have clone monoblocks of Telefunken V69 coming. Also Parallel Single-Ended LS50. And P-P triode able to use either 2a3 or 300B. Then I'll start making some decisions about amplification. The LS50 SE I have is quite remarkable in transparency. Unforgiving and illuminating at the same time.

Phil

 

[spiritofmusic]

Phil, can you elaborate a little on what Sean is doing w the cabinets on the 6 range?

When I heard he was using carbon fibre/monococque ideas, I assumed he was going the Wilson and Rockport routes of super inert, super heavy structures.

What I gather is actually the opposite. That he's blending carbon fibre w Russian Birch to gain more stiffness w less weight overall.

This suggests to me he feels that less cabinet talk is the goal, but not a totally inert, super dense, obelisk-type structure.

Does this mean he still feels he wants SOME cabinet character to come thru?

Or has he achieved the Wilson/Rockport type goal of zero cabinet talk but w none of the ergonomic challenges of trying to move a 250-400kg spkr, and none of the cost implications (Wilson and Rockport resin structures must be Hellishly expensive to manufacture).