Isolation Transformer and Balanced Power versus PS Audio Regenerator

[Alrainbow]

Ty for your answer now let me say this DDK
lets assume most systems are askew a bit
Maybe what better power just might be Showing you warts that were not heard before. I'm not kidding. In making my severs and playing into dacs
I always got better then last weeks mistakes until I used many ways of reference to guide me
An example is headphones a few ones
Tape and vinyl and digital
More then one dac
Not making more then one change at a time and most of all not making fast changes
If there is one thing to not do is multiple ones at one time and letting ones brain to settle in on new
Even if it's at first Wtf is wrong now lol.
For me it's takes about 15 to 30 mins to begin to flesh out change if done faster it's hit and miss.

 

[microstrip]

Yes, AC power of approximately 115V comes into the house.

OK, no more questions asked!

Except one - what are the objectives of a power conditioner?

 

[ddk]

Ty for your answer now let me say this DDK
lets assume most systems are askew a bit
Maybe what better power just might be Showing you warts that were not heard before. I'm not kidding. In making my severs and playing into dacs
I always got better then last weeks mistakes until I used many ways of reference to guide me
An example is headphones a few ones
Tape and vinyl and digital
More then one dac
Not making more then one change at a time and most of all not making fast changes
If there is one thing to not do is multiple ones at one time and letting ones brain to settle in on new
Even if it's at first Wtf is wrong now lol.
For me it's takes about 15 to 30 mins to begin to flesh out change if done faster it's hit and miss.

It's not the case Al, I'm not talking about warts of a system whatever one labels as such, this is a clear and very distinct type of distortion/coloration brought about by the widgets, it's the same distortion/coloration across the board no matter which system I put them in results are exactly the same even in 230v countries.

david

 

[Alrainbow]

It's not the case Al, I'm not talking about warts of a system whatever one labels as such, this is a clear and very distinct type of distortion/coloration brought about by the widgets, it's the same distortion/coloration across the board no matter which system I put them in results are exactly the same even in 230v countries.

david

I'm not accusing you of being wrong but it's just very odd in that all setups do have noise in them.
I measure this with a scope before and after psu dc is made
I have even and do in my setup reverse Polarity on input voltage as well. On simple psu it's easy to align at dc psu voltage. I simply align the ripple to be the same on all devices. It's complex on multi psu devices using more then one transformer.
It all matters and digital is even worse
Anyway all posts we each learn from always
Thanks

 

[ddk]

I'm not accusing you of being wrong but it's just very odd in that all setups do have noise in them.
I measure this with a scope before and after psu dc is made
I have even and do in my setup reverse Polarity on input voltage as well. On simple psu it's easy to align at dc psu voltage. I simply align the ripple to be the same on all devices. It's complex on multi psu devices using more then one transformer.
It all matters and digital is even worse
Anyway all posts we each learn from always
Thanks

I didn't say that all the systems had noise just that the widgets have a distinctive distortion/coloration that carries through different systems.

david

 

[spiritofmusic]

It looks like I may have been too hasty in excluding P10 on balanced power. Apologies. For me anyhow, balanced power ticks every box I need, no downsides at all.

YMMV etc, eg re DDK. For me anyhow it gives the benefits of low noise and tonal color I got from my Burmester conditioner, but eliminates the dynamics shortfall I had w the Burmester, and a big boost in bass heft and texture, esp going from the commercial Airlink 3kV unit to my audiophile Westwick 8kV one.

Can't see any perceived need to add a regen like P10.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Thanks Ron...so you anticipate buying a Torus unit that plugs into the audio room wall...and then you plug your front end into it? Which unit are you looking at?

Yes, exactly — a 240VAC unit. Plus dedicated 100 amp run to dedicated breaker box and the JPS in-wall AC cable and that absurdly expensive dual chemical ground (which allegedly did achieve a very low resistance to ground even in the very dry earth of Los Angeles).

I am looking at Torus AVR 60 Balanced (total overkill for front-end components).

 

[LL21]

Yes, exactly — a 240VAC unit. Plus dedicated 100 amp run to dedicated breaker box and the JPS in-wall AC cable and that absurdly expensive dual chemical ground (which allegedly did achieve a very low resistance to ground even in the very dry earth of Los Angeles).

I am looking at Torus AVR 60 Balanced (total overkill for front-end components).

Thanks...good to know.

 

[RogerD]

I didn't say that all the systems had noise just that the widgets have a distinctive distortion/coloration that carries through different systems.

david

I agree...I still think it is a waste of money to condition power from the panel to the outlet, provided you have dedicated 20 amp circuits. Now from the outlet to the components that’s where the problem effects total system SQ. You want the amplifier power unconditioned or uninhibited from the mains panel and focus on grounding the eguipment in a single point configuration. If you do that in a sufficient manner, then you will enjoy music as it was meant to be heard...distortion free. In this day and age component single point grounding is mandatory. IMHO

 

[Ron Resnick]

I agree...I still think it is a waste of money to condition power from the panel to the outlet, provided you have dedicated 20 amp circuits. Now from the outlet to the components that’s where the problem effects total system SQ. You want the amplifier power unconditioned or uninhibited from the mains panel and focus on grounding the eguipment in a single point configuration. If you do that in a sufficient manner, then you will enjoy music as it was meant to be heard...distortion free. In this day and age component single point grounding is mandatory. IMHO

Isn’t “to the outlet” and “from the outlet” the exact same place (i.e., you are at the outlet, into which you plug your component).

 

[Alrainbow]

Isn’t “to the outlet” and “from the outlet” the exact same place (i.e., you are at the outlet, into which you plug your component).

Yes Ron I'm tapping out now. It's amazing how this goes. One says left one says right and they both are soo sure. I don't mean to be rude it's just that people read and then try. I may not agree with all but we do need to make sense

 

[LL21]

Isn’t “to the outlet” and “from the outlet” the exact same place (i.e., you are at the outlet, into which you plug your component).

Wouldnt power conditioning to the outlet mean you are placing the conditioner at main distribution panel...and then distributing from the panel to the outlet. Whereas 'from the outlet' means there is NO power conditioning at the main distribution panel...but someone is plugging in a power conditioner from the outlet (presumably lower power capacitance or whatever it is called.

This means:
- if you are conditioning at the main distribution panel, you put in for example 8kva Westwick thing which presumably means you can plug your amp straight into the wall and benefit from power conditoning
- if you are 'only' conditioning from the plug into the system via a smaller power conditioner...then your amps do not get this benefit with most power conditioners which would melt if the amps are too powerful.

maybe???

 

[RogerD]

Isn’t “to the outlet” and “from the outlet” the exact same place (i.e., you are at the outlet, into which you plug your component).

Pardon me...I thought I was pretty clear....let me make it clearer. What degrades the audio signal is the power that has a effect only in the signal path...so from the IEC Connection. The trouble is internal ground schemes are not the same and have different potentials. Why condition power that has yet to effect the audio signal? It is much more efficient to have a single point ground that makes all the internal ground schemes the same. Doesn’t really matter if done by a star ground configuration or a device designed to accomplish the same. That is the only way to really remove all distortion. Anyway that’s my experience.

I’ll just add the pathway needs to be sufficient to make all grounds the same potential in the audio system (in the signal path). Can it be measured? I doubt it. You have to know what to listen for. Another member called the SQ “Stress Free”.. I call it totally without congestion or without any hindrance.

 

[LL21]

Thanks, Roger. Though I am no techie, your comments are clear.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Wouldnt power conditioning to the outlet mean you are placing the conditioner at main distribution panel...and then distributing from the panel to the outlet. Whereas 'from the outlet' means there is NO power conditioning at the main distribution panel...but someone is plugging in a power conditioner from the outlet (presumably lower power capacitance or whatever it is called.

This means:
- if you are conditioning at the main distribution panel, you put in for example 8kva Westwick thing which presumably means you can plug your amp straight into the wall and benefit from power conditoning
- if you are 'only' conditioning from the plug into the system via a smaller power conditioner...then your amps do not get this benefit with most power conditioners which would melt if the amps are too powerful.

maybe???

This all sounds completely accurate to me.

 

[Alrainbow]

Pardon me...I thought I was pretty clear....let me make it clearer. What degrades the audio signal is the power that has a effect only in the signal path...so from the IEC Connection. The trouble is internal ground schemes are not the same and have different potentials. Why condition power that has yet to effect the audio signal? It is much more efficient to have a single point ground that makes all the internal ground schemes the same. Doesn’t really matter if done by a star ground configuration or a device designed to accomplish the same. That is the only way to really remove all distortion. Anyway that’s my experience.

I’ll just add the pathway needs to be sufficient to make all grounds the same potential in the audio system (in the signal path). Can it be measured? I doubt it. You have to know what to listen for. Another member called the SQ “Stress Free”.. I call it totally without congestion or without any hindrance.

You have some truth but what about line noise ? This is not fixed in grounding inside each device
But if the unit had an internal bal iso as some do yes it helps there and an ext one has little purpose
Also dc on the mains is not fixed by any grounding Method I know of. It's not fixed on a typical iso either. Lastly as some just can't live with transformer based iso system a can say a denali
By Shunyata works very well in passive power conditioning.

 

[RogerD]

You have some truth but what about line noise ? This is not fixed in grounding inside each device
But if the unit had an internal bal iso as some do yes it helps there and an ext one has little purpose
Also dc on the mains is not fixed by any grounding Method I know of. It's not fixed on a typical iso either. Lastly as some just can't live with transformer based iso system a can say a denali
By Shunyata works very well in passive power conditioning.

In my experience sufficiently star grounded systems remove all problems associated with problems of power from the provider. Noisy transformers are rendered quite as an example. In fact sometimes I doubt cables(Hi end) really are needed.A well designed pro type cable might do as well as long they are well shielded. I have come to the conclusion that a dedicated 10’awg line is sufficient...less is better.
DC on the line, isn’t that a problem at the panel? A good electrician should be able to fix.

 

[Alrainbow]

In my experience sufficiently star grounded systems remove all problems associated with problems of power from the provider. Noisy transformers are rendered quite as an example. In fact sometimes I doubt cables(Hi end) really are needed.A well designed pro type cable might do as well as long they are well shielded. I have come to the conclusion that a dedicated 10’awg line is sufficient...less is better.
DC on the line, isn’t that a problem at the panel? A good electrician should be able to fix.

Hahaha no of it could be solved I wound make a lot of money just doing it.
It's made better a few ways. It rons new iso has its virtue in lowering it over all.
I wish line noise could be solved in grounding.
It does fix many issues this is true

 

[microstrip]

(...) DC on the line, isn’t that a problem at the panel? A good electrician should be able to fix.

Can we know how does your electrician fix the problem of DC on the line?

 

[RogerD]

Can we know how does your electrician fix the problem of DC on the line?

DC on a AC line...do a search not common to begin with.