State-of-the-Art Digital

spiritofmusic

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Graham, I think the days of the one note dac are gone. All the chat on WBF is re the heavyweights that deliver $20k+ eg Formula, Pacific, TD-12, Vivaldi, Select. All perform flawlessly it seems.

There's also a heavyweight battle in the $1-5k market eg MHDT, Yggy, Holo Springs, Exogal, Terminator, Chord, Hegel, Aqua, where all the reports I see on Darko Audio, Computer Audiophile, Super Best Audio Friends, Audiogon etc again show stellar performance and zero feedback re one note sounds.

For me, based on that, it's the server where any hint of cold, grey, grainy, smoothed over, euphonic, non immersive, is likely to be the culprit...otherwise why would there be this absolute obsession by the server designers to suppress noise and max out seperate PSUs, and end users wouldn't go down the rabbit hole like Alice on optimising multiple elements in the network chain. And I wouldn't have heard my fair share of server-based front ends sound so cold if noise wasn't the preeminent issue, imho way more than even high quality analog or cd playback.

So if I finally plunge into the streaming pool, the dac will be the least of my issues, I know there'll be at least a half dozen under $5k that will suit me. But getting the streamer and critically noise suppression sorted, decision and application right, for me that's the way bigger challenge.
 

the sound of Tao

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Jul 18, 2014
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Graham, I think the days of the one note dac are gone. All the chat on WBF is re the heavyweights that deliver $20k+ eg Formula, Pacific, TD-12, Vivaldi, Select. All perform flawlessly it seems.

There's also a heavyweight battle in the $1-5k market eg MHDT, Yggy, Holo Springs, Exogal, Terminator, Chord, Hegel, Aqua, where all the reports I see on Darko Audio, Computer Audiophile, Super Best Audio Friends, Audiogon etc again show stellar performance and zero feedback re one note sounds.

For me, based on that, it's the server where any hint of cold, grey, grainy, smoothed over, euphonic, non immersive, is likely to be the culprit...otherwise why would there be this absolute obsession by the server designers to suppress noise and max out seperate PSUs, and end users wouldn't go down the rabbit hole like Alice on optimising multiple elements in the network chain. And I wouldn't have heard my fair share of server-based front ends sound so cold if noise wasn't the preeminent issue, imho way more than even high quality analog or cd playback.

So if I finally plunge into the streaming pool, the dac will be the least of my issues, I know there'll be at least a half dozen under $5k that will suit me. But getting the streamer and critically noise suppression sorted, decision and application right, for me that's the way bigger challenge.
Yes, that’d be the way I also see it Marc. But if you’re going to spend $5k on a dac I’d stick to the better value end of that lower end of the spectrum.

The shortlist of dacs in that first tier you mention in your first par are going to deliver great outcomes mostly I’d add in Aries Cerat also and a Mscaler TT2 combo he says with a good degree of digital happiness :) so then the make or break then comes at the server that feeds them for sure.

Given just no constraints I’d more than happily go Extreme + Lampi or MSB or Aries Cerat but being a simple scholar the Antipodes combo with a Chord dac and mscaler isn’t at all leaving me wanting any more.
 
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spiritofmusic

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Well, I have a trusted contact on WBF who knows my sound quite well, has heard a LOT, is an analog man at heart, and is not afraid of giving me his opinion. And his verdict is for the MHDT Orchid at $1k. There's an almost Lampi-like reverence for this brand from it's users online, and the buzz is uniformly good. The trick for me then is where to go with a streamer choice that is again universally highly regarded, has got a track record on addressing hash via well engineered solutions incl multiple psu.s, and isn't stupidly unaffordable, Roon Core/Endpoint being a nice addition. Innuos Zen Mk3 or Zenith Mk3 being the obvious choice, or Lumin, DCS Bridge, Limetree Bridge, Chord 2go if I'm not bothered about Roon all in one.
 

morricab

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Well, I have a trusted contact on WBF who knows my sound quite well, has heard a LOT, is an analog man at heart, and is not afraid of giving me his opinion. And his verdict is for the MHDT Orchid at $1k. There's an almost Lampi-like reverence for this brand from it's users online, and the buzz is uniformly good. The trick for me then is where to go with a streamer choice that is again universally highly regarded, has got a track record on addressing hash via well engineered solutions incl multiple psu.s, and isn't stupidly unaffordable, Roon Core/Endpoint being a nice addition. Innuos Zen Mk3 or Zenith Mk3 being the obvious choice, or Lumin, DCS Bridge, Limetree Bridge, Chord 2go if I'm not bothered about Roon all in one.

Talk to Lucas at Lucas Audio lab...he can sort out your server situation for a pretty fair price and he is based in the UK. If you want to spend $1K on a DAC then the Monarchy Audio M24 (or NM24) is the best I have heard in that price category...I still have and love mine in my second system.
 
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morricab

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Yes, that’d be the way I also see it Marc. But if you’re going to spend $5k on a dac I’d stick to the better value end of that lower end of the spectrum.

The shortlist of dacs in that first tier you mention in your first par are going to deliver great outcomes mostly I’d add in Aries Cerat also and a Mscaler TT2 combo he says with a good degree of digital happiness :) so then the make or break then comes at the server that feeds them for sure.

Given just no constraints I’d more than happily go Extreme + Lampi or MSB or Aries Cerat but being a simple scholar the Antipodes combo with a Chord dac and mscaler isn’t at all leaving me wanting any more.

The Aries Cerat Helena DAC is significantly more affordable than the Kassandra and is the same architecture as Kassandra with some wrinkles (like tube rectification for the output stage).
 
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Joe Whip

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Feb 8, 2014
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While I do not yet have one, I have heard the Sonore Signature and the new Signature Optical. About $5k for the whole system. While I haven’t heard it in my system yet, they both sound fabulous in the system I have heard it in, which is a fantastic designed from the ground up room, with Spectral electronics, Evolution Acoustic speakers and the Yggy 2 and Terminator DACs. Simply stunning results. If I am going to add a server streamer this will be the one most likely. I have had a couple of others to demo in my room, and I was not impressed at all.
 

spiritofmusic

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Joe, the SGC/SystemeOptique combination is on my radar. I have read a couple of user reports concluding the Innuos Zenith Mk3 just shades things, and there's the possibility of better things w the Innuos Phoenix USB reclocker as well.
The main reason I may forgo SGC/Rendu is the doubling of boxes compared to Innuos w attendant need for more pwr cords, and quadrupoling of box count/sets of footers w added LPSs. The Zen/Zenith is a one-box solution.
 

Joe Whip

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I hear you on all the boxes. My room is wired for Ethernet, I have plenty of spare power cords around and have plenty of space for the boxes up here in the old attic which I expanded and turned into a dedicated space for music. No WAF issues up here.
 

spiritofmusic

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Joe, I'm in my man cave too. But 2x the number of boxes/4x incl LPS, plus need for 2x the number of cbls and 4x the number of footers, REALLY ramps up the cost. I could skimp on those, but other than the specific challenge of isolating a tt, streamers seem to absolutely be the most critical device re issue w noise, whether EM hash/pwr grid issues, and vibration related noise. Extra box count here really adds to need/cost on covering these bases.
And since I've heard several expensive yet ultimately unconvincing streamer-based front ends, I cannot imagine cutting corners here.
 

Joe Whip

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Ok, but I have heard these boxes in operation compared to other more expensive ones and this sounds better to me so I don’t see it as cutting corners. It is great that there are so many options out there and we all have choices.
 

spiritofmusic

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Can you identify which compared poorly? Feel free to PM me. I'd really appreciate the data points.
 

Kingrex

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Feb 3, 2019
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Talking about boxes, cabling and footers. If your streaming, there is still the surfboard modem +LPS > Asus router + LPS > Audio Switch + LPS > maybe also a Gigafoil +LPS. All this stuff on bases with decent power cords in and out. And decent ethenet cables. Its easy to go overboard .

I have everything above sans the gigafoil and isolation bases. I want to try the gigafoil and better stands. Im on racks on a concrete wall with good power to my data center. I definitely heard improvements as I built out the digital backbone. Friends visiting too heard it as I would insert and remove items to test.

It all makes a difference.

FWIW, last night I inserted a Environmental Potential EP2050 Waveform Correction Absorber. My wife immediately said, what did you donto the tv. Rhe color were incredibly dynamic and poping. My overall system noise is dead silent. Never better.
 

jespera

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Jan 12, 2018
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Well, I have a trusted contact on WBF who knows my sound quite well, has heard a LOT, is an analog man at heart, and is not afraid of giving me his opinion. And his verdict is for the MHDT Orchid at $1k. There's an almost Lampi-like reverence for this brand from it's users online, and the buzz is uniformly good. The trick for me then is where to go with a streamer choice that is again universally highly regarded, has got a track record on addressing hash via well engineered solutions incl multiple psu.s, and isn't stupidly unaffordable, Roon Core/Endpoint being a nice addition. Innuos Zen Mk3 or Zenith Mk3 being the obvious choice, or Lumin, DCS Bridge, Limetree Bridge, Chord 2go if I'm not bothered about Roon all in one.

IMUHO:
Redbook 44 khz cd runs at a data rate of about 3*16*44 khz = 2Mhz (bits per second). A computer (pc, ipad, rpi, whatever) runs at a clockspeed of around 1-3Ghz. This means that the 2Mhz square waves that the streamer feeds the dac will be infested with high frequent switching noise and gibbs ringing at 1-3Ghz and higher. For some reason the DAC process is sensitive to this noise. And sound wise, this is where that cold computer haze comes from. The more active the cpu is, the more noise. Software such as audirvana, roon, jriver etc reduce this noise by shutting down processes on the cpu to a minimum. And this is generally effective though not a cure.

I dont doubt that linear power supplies, switch boxes, and silver cables can also have an effect but it is expensive and really not effective. And a black hole.

Id hold my horses and delay the big buck$ investment till a real engineering solution appears. For example a computer running at 2MHz.

Use a roon ready raspberry pi in the mean time. For example from hifiberry. Just my 10p.

Jesper
 

adamaley

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Apr 15, 2016
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While I do not yet have one, I have heard the Sonore Signature and the new Signature Optical. About $5k for the whole system. While I haven’t heard it in my system yet, they both sound fabulous in the system I have heard it in, which is a fantastic designed from the ground up room, with Spectral electronics, Evolution Acoustic speakers and the Yggy 2 and Terminator DACs. Simply stunning results. If I am going to add a server streamer this will be the one most likely. I have had a couple of others to demo in my room, and I was not impressed at all.

I think this solution, besides its daisy-chain nature, still doesn't provide a roon core capability option or local storage. Something the other devices Marc listed have. I doubt Marc wants to maintain a separate laptop/PC/NAS to handle Roon/storage.
 

spiritofmusic

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Adam, you would likely run SystemOptique w SGC Sonic Transporter i5 server which is Roon Endpoint.
 

morricab

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Apr 25, 2014
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IMUHO:
Redbook 44 khz cd runs at a data rate of about 3*16*44 khz = 2Mhz (bits per second). A computer (pc, ipad, rpi, whatever) runs at a clockspeed of around 1-3Ghz. This means that the 2Mhz square waves that the streamer feeds the dac will be infested with high frequent switching noise and gibbs ringing at 1-3Ghz and higher. For some reason the DAC process is sensitive to this noise. And sound wise, this is where that cold computer haze comes from. The more active the cpu is, the more noise. Software such as audirvana, roon, jriver etc reduce this noise by shutting down processes on the cpu to a minimum. And this is generally effective though not a cure.

I dont doubt that linear power supplies, switch boxes, and silver cables can also have an effect but it is expensive and really not effective. And a black hole.

Id hold my horses and delay the big buck$ investment till a real engineering solution appears. For example a computer running at 2MHz.

Use a roon ready raspberry pi in the mean time. For example from hifiberry. Just my 10p.

Jesper

interesting and I have heard this from a few respected people that you don't want more processing but less due to pollution of the signal. The most extreme example I have seen is this:

https://www.lessloss.com/laminar-streamer-sd-player-p-207.html

Would be really interesting to try it if it wasn't so breathtakingly expensive! Given that their other products are quite reasonably priced (and good...I have some C-marc cables...nice) they must really think this is something special for digital.
 

jespera

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Jan 12, 2018
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Interesting product. But not super convenient to play from sd card.

Interesting price too. You do get 10% discount if buy 4 though.

Jesper
 

acousticsguru

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Feb 17, 2014
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Sure, but like I said , people don’t always want it

Interesting read, this whole thread, in which I would not like the above to go unnoticed (it kind of did, or at least it seemed so to me reading on).

In my humble opinion, 99% of all those audiophiles who claim they want the truth couldn't live with it if they got it. To me, this fundamentally calls into question the meaning of the term "state of the art".

I used to build loudspeakers with time alignment, with phase-coherent filters of my own design. So my mindset is pretty much the same as that of a recording engineer (there are great interviews online by the likes of Bert van der Wolf, Morten Lindberg and others). The gear one builds, same as the recordings one makes are not supposed to compensate for flaws elsewhere in the system or the recording/mastering chain. Guess what brand people with this mindset tend to use.

Now, I'm not saying one should exclusively play back clap tests on the DAC one intends to audition. On the contrary, unless one is a classical music buff like me, comparing dozens of recordings of the same Opera, Symphony, Piano or Violin Sonata or Concerto etc., where one wants to be able to differentiate between e.g. an early or late Stradivari or other make of violin, and more importantly, all the subtleties of a soloist's playing not just in audiophile, but also historical recordings, the so-called truth is elusive, if not an illusion. More to the point: it may not even be a legitimate goal.

Audiophiles who primarily listen to Pop, Rock, electronically produced music, studio productions or live recordings using anything from microphone arrays to amplified instruments and voices, had better do as the musicians do: it's a mere matter of getting the sound one likes. No use obsessing over what's "natural".

Having said that, given the price category that "state of the art" inevitably seems to imply, I sometimes wish audiophiles would at least include some natural recordings of human voices, real instruments, if not sounds of nature, in their playlists, preferably in the form of phase-coherent one-point recordings, before making a buying decision.

Not long ago, I attended a "shootout" (who ever came up with the idea of using that term in this context?!) of two pricey DACs: one from - depending upon whom one asks - a Greek or Turkish island, the other from a former Eastern-bloc country, i.e. neither brands that either of the afore-mentioned recording engineers would consider using in the studio, but that one would expect to provide a satisfying listening experience, where the last song used for comparison was Jon Hopkins "Abandon Window" from his album Immunity, no doubt a multi-track studio recording that has little to do with what I'd use to base buying decisions on, but still, the closest to a natural sound on any of the track list was some rain and lightning in the background that one of the two DACs reduced to electronic crackling reminiscent of the resolution of a first-generation CD player from the eighties - I've heard white noise from an FFT analyzer that sounded more like rain drops falling. That same DAC, deemed by at least one listener to be the more "dynamic-sounding" of the two, suffered from digital artifacts that made it sound aggressive. Why am I relating this? It reminded me of something else audiophiles tend to underestimate in my opinion: listening fatigue, which one won't notice playing half a track here, skip to a portion of another track there. There's a huge difference when one is a classical buff like me and listens to, as I've done with a friend, Wagner's Ring in one legendary recording, takes a nap or makes sandwiches and gets a nice bottle from the cellar, then listens to another Ring (to the uninitiated: I just described the activity of a whole weekend).

It's no mystery to me why some in this thread find it hard to integrate e.g. the DACs of a certain British manufacturer into certain systems: gear conceived, designed and built with a studio mindset will not, for all the reasons mentioned above, compensate for any flaws elsewhere in a system (for example: using them as source makes it even easier for me to hear the midrange drivers of a loudspeaker brand they're often demoed with are connected in inverted polarity in most if not all models I've heard). Taking that path can lead to frustration.

Or, in a best-case scenario, goosebumps and that elusive "you are there" feeling. I remember hearing Keith Jarrett's Köln Concert and Vladimir Horowitz's Return to Carnegie where I ended up lying in bed awake tingling all over, with the experience engraved in my memory as if I'd attended those concerts in real life. Priceless. Literally.

In a nutshell: what goes in comes out - I love it. I imagine it might even grow on some people if they tried. But would I recommend it? No. Not to 99% of those audiophiles who claim they want the truth and nothing but the truth.

I didn't mention those who aren't even claiming truth is what they want. Personally, I see no wrong in wanting something that sounds unrealistically beautiful.

At home.

Just my five cents' worth, obviously…

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
 
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LL21

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Dec 26, 2010
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Interesting read, this whole thread, in which I would not like the above to go unnoticed (it kind of did, or at least it seemed so to me reading on).

In my humble opinion, 99% of all those audiophiles who claim they want the truth couldn't live with it if they got it. To me, this fundamentally calls into question the meaning of the term "state of the art".

I used to build loudspeakers with time alignment, with phase-coherent filters of my own design. So my mindset is pretty much the same as that of a recording engineer (there are great interviews online by the likes of Bert van der Wolf, Morten Lindberg and others). The gear one builds, same as the recordings one makes are not supposed to compensate for flaws elsewhere in the system or the recording/mastering chain. Guess what brand people with this mindset tend to use.

Now, I'm not saying one should exclusively play back clapping tests on the DAC one intends to audition. On the contrary, unless one is a classical music buff like me, comparing dozens of recordings of the same Opera, Symphony, Piano or Violin Sonata or Concerto etc., where one wants to be able to differentiate between e.g. an early or late Stradivari or other make of violin, and more importantly, all the subtleties of a soloists playing not just in audiophile, but also historical recordings, the so-called truth is elusive, if not an illusion. More to the point: it may not even be a legitimate goal.

Audiophiles who primarily listen to Pop, Rock, electronically produced music, studio productions or live recordings using anything from microphone arrays to amplified instruments and voices, had better do as the musicians do: it's a mere matter of getting the sound one likes. No use obsessing over what's "natural".

Having said that, given the price category that "state of the art" inevitably seems to imply, I sometimes wish audiophiles would at least include some natural recordings of human voices, real instruments, if not sounds of nature, in their playlists, preferably in the form of phase-coherent one-point recordings, before making a buying decision.

Not long ago, I attended a "shootout" (who ever came up with the idea of using that term in this context?!) of two pricey DACs: one from - depending upon whom one asks - a Greek or Turkish island, the other from a former Eastern-bloc country, i.e. neither brands that either of the afore-mentioned recording engineers would consider using in the studio, but that one would expect to provide a satisfying listening experience, where the last song used for comparison was Jon Hopkins "Abandon Window" from his album Immunity, no doubt a multi-track studio recording that has little to do with what I'd use to base buying decisions on, but still, the closest to a natural sound on any of the track list was some rain and lightning in the background that one of the two DACs reduced to electronic crackling reminiscent of the resolution of a first-generation CD player from the eighties - I've heard white noise from an FFT analyzer that sounded more like rain drops falling. That same DAC, deemed by at least one listener to be the more "dynamic-sounding" of the two, suffered from digital artifacts that made it sound aggressive. Why am I relating this? It reminded me of something else audiophiles tend to underestimate in my opinion: listening fatigue, which one won't notice playing half a track here, skip to a portion or another track there. There's a huge difference when one is a classical buff like me and listens to, as I've done with a friend, Wagner's Ring in one legendary recording, takes a nap or makes sandwiches and gets a nice bottle from the cellar, then listens to another Ring (to the uninitiated: I just described the activity of a whole weekend).

It's no mystery to me why some in this thread find it hard to integrate e.g. the DACs of a certain British manufacturer into certain systems: gear conceived, designed and built with a studio mindset will not, for all the reasons mentioned above, compensate for any flaws elsewhere in a system (for example: using them as source makes it even easier for me to hear the midrange drivers of a loudspeaker brand they're often demoed with are connected in inverted polarity in most if not all models I've heard). Taking that path can lead to frustration.

Or, in a best-case scenario, goosebumps and that elusive "you are there" feeling. I remember hearing Keith Jarrett's Köln Concert and Vladimir Horowitz's Return to Carnegie where I ended up lying in bed awake tingling all over, with the experience engraved in my memory as if I'd attended those concerts in real life. Priceless. Literally.

In a nutshell: what goes in comes out - I love it. I imagine it might even grow on some people if they tried. But would I recommend it? No. Not to 99% of those audiophiles who claim they want the truth and nothing but the truth.

I didn't mention those who aren't even claiming truth is what they want. Personally, I see no wrong in wanting something that sounds unrealistically beautiful.

At home.

Just my five cents' worth, obviously…

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
Very interesting read...I suppose the obvious questions from non-techies (I always include myself) would be: what equipment have you found worth considering? I am going to guess DCS is one of them, but there are clearly other UK digital companies. Upon reading multiple posts from certain people, I do find i tune in to some more often than others...there are members here who are professional musicians. People who make a living from performing live classical music strike me as a good ear to listen to, and there are also well regarded mastering professionals on the site, and I also tend to listen to their views as well.

If you dont mind, it would be great to hear what companies in digital audio you really think are among the top.
 

acousticsguru

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Feb 17, 2014
507
326
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Very interesting read...I suppose the obvious questions from non-techies (I always include myself) would be: what equipment have you found worth considering? I am going to guess DCS is one of them, but there are clearly other UK digital companies. Upon reading multiple posts from certain people, I do find i tune in to some more often than others...there are members here who are professional musicians. People who make a living from performing live classical music strike me as a good ear to listen to, and there are also well regarded mastering professionals on the site, and I also tend to listen to their views as well.

If you dont mind, it would be great to hear what companies in digital audio you really think are among the top.

Like everyone else I'm a hobbyist audiophile and primarily see myself as a music lover. Tastes are individual, and one needs to make up their own mind, which is what I was hoping to convey in my post.

In an ideal world, I would own systems that cater for different types of music and moods. But sure, in order to save time and money, I'd recommend demoing all the usual suspects, from the top down. Preferably at home where one has the opportunity to spend some time with a product. Without comparison. I ask myself questions such as does this sound like the Steinway my sister used to practice on, or does this sound like a human voice, make believe there's someone here with me in the listening room? I never ask myself does this or that sound better. It'll only lead to decisions one is going to regret.

I'm quick to decide against as the sound of so many DACs makes me feel as if I were staring at fluorescent light. It may have been Neil Young who said about early digital playback that it made him feel as if he were being pierced by ice rain. I know that feeling all too well.

But that's not the same as to commit, make buying decisions. When audiophiles refer to the "state of the art", they're often of a certain age (don't we all wish we could have afforded all we ever wanted when we were young and in good health, blessed with the eyes of an eagle and the hearing of a fox?) and in the market for what they consider an endgame product. It's a matter of asking oneself, could/can I live with it?

Again, just my five cents' worth…

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
 
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