State-of-the-Art Digital

[morricab]

I get it now: I walked out on, or intended to walk out on, the playback of a particular NOS DAC - which in no way means I have a problem with NOS DACs in general. I'm not sure you want to discuss this here, entirely up to you.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

What you are referring to is the SECOND time you told me your hypothesis for DACs causing you a migraine. You were generalizing to this type in general...I am pretty sure I did not misunderstand what you SAID...what you MEANT might have been different...

 

[acousticsguru]

What you are referring to is the SECOND time you told me your hypothesis for DACs causing you a migraine. You were generalizing to this type in general...I am pretty sure I did not misunderstand what you SAID...what you MEANT might have been different...

Been trying to remember the conversation and come to the conclusion you're not differentiating between oversampling and upsampling. I've been wondering whether upsampling makes a difference ever since I first owned an upsampler, but it's inconclusive. Regarding oversampling, that DAC that I walked out on, unless you had told me, I would not have known it was NOS. The speculation was all yours. I wish I had the answer to what it is in digital playback that triggers migraines, but don't. If you have the answer, please elucidate!

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

 

[PeterA]

I suspect that for some unclear reason vinyl does not expose room/system problems in quite the same ruthless manner as digital does.

Al, that is a fascinating statement. Is this a common suspicion among audiophiles? Are you basing this suspicion on your own observations of systems that have both vinyl and digital sources? Or on more general observations of vinyl systems and digital systems and how easily you can identify room/system problems?

EDIT: Moved to the analog/digital thread: https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/analog-digital-and-all-that.30622/page-4

 

[morricab]

You mean to say I have a bias in favor of DACs that won't trigger a migraine. That's correct. Twenty or so years ago a DAC like that was an exception, and I was happy to finally be able to listen to music for hours as I'd hitherto only been able with analogue playback (tape and vinyl).

dCS is in no way unique in this respect today. If anything, when I listen to other DACs whose sound l like (a lot), e.g. the different Lampizator models, incarnations, generations, updates, tube rolling, whatnot, I sometimes had a hard time listening to favorite recordings that I know by heart, realizing some parts were missing, with the earlier separate DSD or R2R boards. andromedaaudio above made similar comment about his Mark Levinson and Meitner. It's difficult it is to go back and accept a lower resolution playback. As if one instantly got older and were wondering if one's eyesight and hearing were diminished. As soon as music is being played back that I don't know, not missing anything, I'm enjoying what I'm hearing.

I said this several times: I like different DACs for different reasons. If I had the means, I'd surely own several, as well as upgrade in a blink when something better comes along. My emotional attachment to gear doesn't extend beyond the loudspeakers I built with my own hands. That I'll admit is different: my own blood, sweat and tears.

I'm starting to think the problem is twofold: firstly, you appear to be offended because I spoke my mind a couple of times (in hindsight, I've been wondering if I got invited that one time precisely because I'm occasionally taking the freedom to be blunt). Transactional analysis and classic rhetorics has it that one shouldn't ask questions if one doesn't want to hear the answers. Get over it. Secondly, my ears don't have eyes: I listen. I don't assume, seeing a pair of horns and a stack of tube electronics, to get one type of sound, versus seeing e.g. a dCS component, automatically jumping to the conclusion that I'm going to hear something diametrically opposed.

Now, would it might make it easier to explain a relative absence of an expectation bias stating that I own or have owned, among other, dCS components? It seems to me of more value in the context of a thread like this to point out that I have heard more systems with dCS source components that I didn't like than ones I do. I don't understand those people, and if they made their ill-fated choice upon the recommendation of others, I certainly do not want to be quoted by anyone going down this path that I advised them to take it.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

I was not offended as I am used to you speaking your mind; however, I had apprehensions (later founded) because I had in the back of my mind your comments about the migraines and particular types of DACs.

 

[morricab]

Al, that is a fascinating statement. Is this a common suspicion among audiophiles? Are you basing this suspicion on your own observations of systems that have both vinyl and digital sources? Or on more general observations of vinyl systems and digital systems and how easily you can identify room/system problems?

Could artifacts be somehow directional? Then the room could impact audibility by "directing" those distortions to you or away from you...seems unlikely but??

 

[acousticsguru]

I was not offended as I am used to you speaking your mind; however, I had apprehensions (later founded) because I had in the back of my mind your comments about the migraines and particular types of DACs.

Sorry about that: what's of importance to me may not be of importance to others, I realize that. If anything, it might be interesting from the perspective it's something DACs apparently do, and unnecessarily so. There's at least some likelihood that what may trigger a migraine in the hyper-sensitive may be the same that causes the "listening fatigue" so many audiophiles attribute to digital playback. The latter part I'm positive about: it's the digital playback. Wherever I go visiting people, when I ask them (the polite me) to change source to a tape recorder or turntable, I've never experienced the like.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

 

[PeterA]

Sorry about that: what's of importance to me may not be of importance to others, I realize that. If anything, it might be interesting from the perspective it's something DACs apparently do, and unnecessarily so. There's at least some likelihood that what may trigger a migraine in the hyper-sensitive may be the same that causes the "listening fatigue" so many audiophiles attribute to digital playback. The latter part I'm positive about: it's the digital playback. Wherever I go visiting people, when I ask them (the polite me) to change source to a tape recorder or turntable, I've never experienced the like.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

David, it may not be appropriate for me to comment in such a thread, as I have a vinyl-only system, but I know exactly what you mean by this migraine inducing sound. I have experienced it many times in many systems. Not usually as severe as a migraine headache, but a sensation that makes me quite uncomfortable and fatigued. I can not stay long, and the tell tale sign is that I usually ask the host to turn down the music. That helps. I don't know what causes it, but I am definitely susceptible and seem more sensitive to this then are most of my listening friends.

 

[acousticsguru]

Could artifacts be somehow directional? Then the room could impact audibility by "directing" those distortions to you or away from you...seems unlikely but??

As in Neil Young's (if memory serves) quote about early digital playback, that he feels as if he were being pierced by ice rain?

The guys above discussing whether room acoustic may specifically make one aspect worse but not others - referring to frequency range, not unlikely. Could the same be true for distortions? Are they usually limited to a certain frequency range, in particular ones that are subjectively inaudible?

Now that you're mentioning this, yes, I do believe a highly reflective room will make matters worse. No doubt it will. But that's not to say that an absorbing room would improve matters. It'll give me more time to run outside and hide.

That's perhaps the main problem in this: I don't claim to hear what I hear, if you know what I mean. Those DACs I try to avoid, it's not that I dislike the sound. I never get to the point where I'm able to appreciate the sound.

Have you ever been served fermented fish? Does it help being told to peg your nose so you're able to have a taste (= what one waitress told me, didn't work)?

It's not as easy as with e.g. fluorescent light. When you stare into a neon tube, can you see the flickering in comparison to the permanent glow of a traditional light bulb? I can. The impulse is the same: I don't want to be exposed to it. But with neon bulbs, people are more understanding of what's going on.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

 

[acousticsguru]

David, it may not be appropriate for me to comment in such a thread, as I have a vinyl-only system, but I know exactly what you mean by this migraine inducing sound. I have experienced it many times in many systems. Not usually as severe as a migraine headache, but a sensation that makes me quite uncomfortable and fatigued. I can not stay long, and the tell tale sign is that I usually ask the host to turn down the music. That helps. I don't know what causes it, but I am definitely susceptible and seem more sensitive to this then are most of my listening friends.

That sounds familiar. Have you always experienced it or has this sensation changed with age?

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

 

[PeterA]

That sounds familiar. Have you always experienced it or has this sensation changed with age?

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

That is an interesting question, David. I do not really know. I seem more and more aware of it in digital systems which are described by their owners as "accurate" or resolving, but I am sensitive to it and hear it right away. I only became exposed to such systems in the past few years. I try to audition gear at dealerships with a vinyl source and my own LPs. Perhaps the two digital players I tried years ago in my own system at home did not exhibit these traits because my electronics, cables, and speakers have always been too "euphonic" or dark. Or these two players were not High End Audio state of the art digital.

More on track with the OP, I have heard Lampi, Vivaldi, mid level dCS and MSB, Berkeley, Spectral and others which I no longer remember. I did like the dCS Rossini in the system I heard.

 

[Joe Whip]

I don’t know about you guys, but I have heard vinyl only based rooms that drove me out quickly as the sound was bright and loud. I have heard digital like that too. sometimes it is the equipment, like speakers, other times the room. It isn’t like, hey, the room sucks but thrown in some vinyl and all is good.

 

[acousticsguru]

I don’t know about you guys, but I have heard vinyl only based rooms that drove me out quickly as the sound was bright and loud. I have heard digital like that too. sometimes it is the equipment, like speakers, other times the room. It isn’t like, hey, the room sucks but thrown in some vinyl and all is good.

Laughing out loud as I'm reading this - yes, of course we've all heard horrible playback of any kind. The weird thing is, when I join my dad to go to the local jazz "concert hall" (not a club in the sene not serving drinks etc.), it's often so loud I can't stand it. But I've never once experienced it as a migraine trigger.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

 

[Elliot G.]

I think this is a self induced Trama based on the memory of some old digital and has no basis in fact in today's audio world. I have no issue with someone liking of preferring records but the statement about digital is just plain BS. When listening to CH Precision, dCS, MSB , Wadax, Total Dac etc. in todays' market this is just not true. Having some psychosis from listening to early sony cd players in the 1980's is not what digital sounds like today. As far as they exciting a room differently that is not a digital vs analog event. I agree that I have heard some awful record playing systems and tons of terrible sounding LPS. Before I went to digital for good I had over 6000 records, a Keith Monks record cleaning machine a bunch of different tables, arms and cartridges and none of them magically made all my records sound great. In fact less then 25 percent of my record collection was even listenable on my system in a serious way.
My friends and colleagues that have made the investment in high quality digital and I have found that the those early redbook CD's that everyone back when digital came out said sounded harsh and crappy were in fact none of those./ We found instead that it was the first few generations of hardware that were bright and crappy. There are however really bad sounding CD's as well and just like the bad sounding records are not the shole story.
M point is you can like analog or digital but one must talk about the reality of what they do today not some distant memory based on an inherent bias toward one or the other that is just not true.

 

[Joe Whip]

I have. One night at the Blue Note In NYC for Lee Ritenour. Damn was that loud, which is why I always bring ear plugs. i had a bad headache driving home, but the crowds sat there oblivious to the aural onslaught. Happened once at Birdland. Can’t recall who that was. Stopped listening at home for a few days. And this was with earplugs.

 

[PeterA]

Laughing out loud as I'm reading this - yes, of course we've all heard horrible playback of any kind. The weird thing is, when I join my dad to go to the local jazz "concert hall" (not a club in the sene not serving drinks etc.), it's often so loud I can't stand it. But I've never once experienced it as a migraine trigger.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

Agreed. I think it has to do with distortions and the conversion from analog to digital and back to analog again, and how we hear things in nature. I do not think this is fully understood. It is an unnatural process and some people are more sensitive to it than are others. I think the better DACs somehow deal better with this conversion and the distortions that are created. But that is just a guess. I have heard some good digital to which I was not sensitive to these artifacts, so I know good DACs exist. I just have not heard many of the latest designs.

I once pointed out a phase issue at a dealership demonstrating a new speaker to a group. Five guys and the salesman were all appreciating the sound. I walked in, listened, and suggested that it was out of phase. Everyone looked at me and dismissed my comment. I politely asked the sales guy to check the speaker cable hook up. He was hesitant because of the implication, but he did and sure enough it was wired out of phase. He shut it down, reoriented the cables, and turned it back on. Everyone now said it sounded better. I stayed for a minute and left the room. The sound still wasn't very good.

People are more and less sensitive to sounds than others, and people do not all hear the same things.

 

[acousticsguru]

That is an interesting question, David. I do not really know. I seem more and more aware of it in digital systems which are described by their owners as "accurate" or resolving, but I am sensitive to it and hear it right away. I only became exposed to such systems in the past few years. I try to audition gear at dealerships with a vinyl source and my own LPs. Perhaps the two digital players I tried years ago in my own system at home did not exhibit these traits because my electronics, cables, and speakers have always been too "euphonic" or dark. Or these two players were not High End Audio state of the art digital.

More on track with the OP, I have heard Lampi, Vivaldi, mid level dCS and MSB, Berkeley, Spectral and others which I no longer remember. I did like the dCS Rossini in the system I heard.

Have you had a chance to demo all of those in the same system? I'm asking this because, same as everyone who has an opinion on everything, I have never had the chance to listen to the Select II in a system I know, so my initial positive impression is hardly less superficial than that of the "No tubes? Let's move on!" troupers I travelled with last time I'd have had a chance. To make matters worse, components like these are often used in systems that, to put it bluntly, I'd not want my stuff to be represented in if I were the manufacturer.

The Spectral CD-player is something else, though, apart from the fact that it'll only play back redbook discs. At the Munich trade show, in a system that sounded like a dead duck playing back high-resolution PCM and DSD files via a popular brand DAC fed by a popular brand server, after the official part of the demonstration and people were leaving the room, the sales person changed inputs on the Spectral preamp and put in a CD. The sound! I swear, the difference would have been enough to convince the uninitiated that high-resolution sucks…

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

 

[acousticsguru]

I think this is a self induced Trama based on the memory of some old digital and has no basis in fact in today's audio world. I have no issue with someone liking of preferring records but the statement about digital is just plain BS. When listening to CH Precision, dCS, MSB , Wadax, Total Dac etc. in todays' market this is just not true. Having some psychosis from listening to early sony cd players in the 1980's is not what digital sounds like today.

That's the point, however: while I don't know Wadax, none of the others you're listing appear to produce the presumed artifacts. I've been making the same point: it was different twenty years ago, and surely, thirty-plus. Having said that, the fact alone that a DAC is a recent build doesn't mean it belongs on that list.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

 

[Elliot G.]

That's the point, however: while I don't know Wadax, none of the others you're listing appear to produce the presumed artifacts. I've been making the same point: it was different twenty years ago, and surely, thirty-plus. Having said that, the fact alone that a DAC is a recent build doesn't mean it belongs on that list.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

I don't believe I said that. I have however listened to all of those I mentioned and they don't sound like what was described. Everything was different 20 years ago. Many Audiophiles want to hold onto these preconceptions for whatever reasons ( i don't pretend to be a shrink) however the intelligent choice is one based on current conditions and facts rather than the same BS babble from the past. There is far less consistency in analog today than digital. It has many more parameters to be wrong from set up and gear than the digital and has less consistency which to those making designs and decisions is very important.
I for one hear too much of the same old gossip from the past and have done an extreme amount of listening to the current leaders to accept that old thinking.

 

[acousticsguru]

I don't believe I said that.

No you didn't. Nor was I referring to the past other than to mention at some point earlier in the discussion that DACs that were free from digital artifacts were comparatively rare twenty years ago, whereas today there are many more. I don't think audiophiles posting in a "SOTA" thread are ones who are much concerned with the past.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.

 

[Elliot G.]

I don't think audiophiles posting in a "SOTA" thread are ones who are much concerned with the past.


I wish that were the truth but I don't believe it is.
There are many stereotypes and antiquated thoughts consistently espoused in these threads. We are living in the golden age of audio yet many still want to listen to the same old same old from the previous century.