Has anyone heard the Devialet D-Premier Integrated Amp/DAC

[fas42]

People hear improvements with various well engineered established high end audio amps/dacs/etc when using cables-filters, you going to suggest the same about those as well?
I hope this is not coming off strong but it is a bit reckless to make that claim Frank without all the information, especially when people will read it and then assume the power supply design is flawed or corners cut, which IMO is not but either way we do not have the facts to make that claim seem so strong.

If there is a limitation regarding this side, it is the smaller powere reserve compared to larger amps and the implementation of capacitors.
To me D-Premier does not compare to those amps with much greater reserves when dealing with dynamic swells, it does well but not as good.
For some this will not matter as it is better than a single D-Premier, for some others they want the full sensation of those dynamic swells that they hear from the big amps.

No need to spring to the designer's defence, Orb, I'm not having a go at them. Ultimately everything that is built by man has some compromises as part of its package, otherwise it becomes hideously expensive, or ugly, or not approriate for its intended usage. I'm sure the Devialet's engineers are highly competent, they are obviously inspired in many areas of its topology.

But you yourself have indicated where a very specific compromise has been made, which has a direct effect that you're aware of. From my experience with playing with quite a few power supplies in audio gear every effort has to be made to allow these to work with the least interference and stress possible, so adding something on the outside improving things tells you that more filtering on the inside of the unit could have been done.

There is a big difference between a compromise and an engineering "flaw" ...

Frank

 

[Orb]

Frank,
as a compromise this is not a deal breaker for many, but reading your previous post it comes across as you are suggesting there is a problem with the power supply that is affecting the sound, which IMO there is not and it is the capacitors that are the only limitation due to size.
That said not all good amps reach the level I am talking about regarding those dynamic swells.
However I agree it would had been great if the size was larger for those that may have a preference for this and dual mono gets closer, but then this is something a listener can identify very quickly in an audition unlike the other variables I mentioned that I feel must need a dual mono setup.

I appreciate you did not necessarily mean flaw or engineering is weak in previous post, just possible might be read that way.
Thanks
Orb

 

[ferenc_k]

Frank,
as a compromise this is not a deal breaker for many, but reading your previous post it comes across as you are suggesting there is a problem with the power supply that is affecting the sound, which IMO there is not and it is the capacitors that are the only limitation due to size.
That said not all good amps reach the level I am talking about regarding those dynamic swells.
However I agree it would had been great if the size was larger for those that may have a preference for this and dual mono gets closer, but then this is something a listener can identify very quickly in an audition unlike the other variables I mentioned that I feel must need a dual mono setup.

I appreciate you did not necessarily mean flaw or engineering is weak in previous post, just possible might be read that way.
Thanks
Orb

I had a chance to try my Devialet to drive a very highly regarded and expensive active studio monitor as a D/A and preamp. I asked the gentlemen at Devialet to send me a config file where the power amps can be remotely switched off, or you can use the bass button on the remote to switch off/on the preamp and the phase button of the remote to switch on/off the power amp part. The Dac and preamp part were compared to Weiss, Mytek and Lavry DACs to drive the active studio monitors, and with some of my friends we found there was no really a comparison, the Devialet driven system sounded more lifelike and beliavable with all kind if music we tried. Soon I will have a chance to try this config with a studio monitors in passive and active form as well. But I honestly can say, that the DAC and preamp parts of the Devialet are very good on its own right and can be compared to any of the high-end DAC or preamps even in higher price range.

 

[fas42]

The Dac and preamp part were compared to Weiss, Mytek and Lavry DACs to drive the active studio monitors, and with some of my friends we found there was no really a comparison, the Devialet driven system sounded more lifelike and beliavable with all kind if music we tried. Soon I will have a chance to try this config with a studio monitors in passive and active form as well. But I honestly can say, that the DAC and preamp parts of the Devialet are very good on its own right and can be compared to any of the high-end DAC or preamps even in higher price range.

To continue my theme of the importance of power supplies, this suggests that when the relatively substantial power supply of the Devialet, compared to those in the dedicated DACs listened to, no longer has to worry about driving the power amp side of things, then the SQ immediately gets a boost. Similar to what Naim's philosophy has been for years ...

Frank

 

[Orb]

Ferenc,
thanks for the info.
Please can you also clarify how the sound changes when using the Devialet also to drive those speakers, I appreciate you did this test more to understand the digital DAC-filter aspect of the Devialet.

Frank, I cannot see how you can equate what Ferenc is saying to the power supply in the Devialet, which now you are suggesting provides better sound if it is not driving output stage at high output.
All we are proving is the quality of the DAC-digital stage of the Devialet in comparison to Weiss and others.

Ferenc, please can you comment if you felt the sound quality of the DAC was impeded when using the D-premier to drive the speakers.
Although all this will prove that if there are differences it is just as likely (and more so IMO) that it is the design of the current dumping combined with the class A providing current for the higher frequencies, rather than a limitation of the power supply that I have commented on does seem to only restrict dynamic swells (other variables I have described do not fit in with it being a power supply concern I feel, unless one wants to consider that for all mono setups that improve over their stereo counterpart).
The caveat being filter-regeneration products but this is anecdotally heard to improve most audio products, including those accepted to be well designed and engineered.

Not sure if you have seen them Frank, but the patents for the amplifier stage have been linked in a few threads on WBF.
Also worth noting Frank that the traits are still there when the music is played quiet, so I would be surprised if it was the power supply as there is little demand by the power amp.

If you have not listened to one in detail yet Frank, please look to the comments from Amir and my more recent posts and then try to audition one, this will give you a good feel on where if any problems reside.

Thanks
Orb

 

[fas42]

Frank, I cannot see how you can equate what Ferenc is saying to the power supply in the Devialet, which now you are suggesting provides better sound if it is not driving output stage at high output.
All we are proving is the quality of the DAC-digital stage of the Devialet in comparison to Weiss and others.

Orb, there is no such thing as a part of the circuitry in isolation. The most brilliant DAC stage will be wrecked by a so-so power supply; a superb power supply will not rescue a medioce DAC. Every component performs as a combination of everything inside the box, and a lot of things outside the box. That's where a lot of people can get themselves into trouble, being absolutely determined that one key part of the system has to be best, like inserting a super expensive capacitor in some place and ignoring all the much lesser parts elsewhere. It may sort of work, but is not the best technique by a long way.

If you look at some of my earlier comments in this thread you can see I'm very impressed by what it has achieved, it's just that nothing is perfect, and when you see certain patterns of behaviour you can guess where more effort will pay off ...

Frank

 

[Orb]

Yeah I agree with that Frank,
but then it is worth noting that anecdotal experience by various listeners of filters and some cables has shown sound quality improvements (or better to say change that may match preference) for many audio products out there,
A lot of them are in a similar state to Devialet on perceived changes using such things.

Would be an interesting thread and one not done yet here on WBF, looking at filtering-cables but more with the discussion focused with what you outlined, as many will agree with that summary you just gave (including me), and raises considerations do most audio gear provide enough isolation-filtering-regulation-etc for the various mains traits and their own circuit designb they cope with.

Thanks
Orb

 

[ferenc_k]

Ferenc,
thanks for the info.
Please can you also clarify how the sound changes when using the Devialet also to drive those speakers, I appreciate you did this test more to understand the digital DAC-filter aspect of the Devialet.


Orb

If I understood your question well, I have no honest answer yet. I could not compare yet Devialet amp section to the amp section of the active speaker as this speaker has an active only version. I plan to try an older active speaker where the speaker can be driven active or passive. Then I can make this kind of comparison too.

Regarding the power supply.
As I work in the broadcast video and pro audio, PA industry mainly, I got a chance to try the D-Premier in a real live situation with the help of few musician and engineer friends to use the D-Premier for a small jazz ensemble with a very high-end not at all usual PA sounding Danley SH100B 3 way PA speaker. We had an AB class Mc2 Audio MC1250 amp there, which is generally used for this speaker in a PA situation like this. The MC2 MC1250 is one of the best PA/studio amp ever made, 1250 W at 4 ohm, and easily can drive impedance below 1 ohm. To much of our big surprise there was no real difference between the two amps driving the Danley speaker, which has the impedance minimum somewhere around 2 ohm and generally not easy to drive even it has 98 dB sensitivity. The Devialet has driven it in a roughly 150 sqm room with few dozen people in it. The sound of the MC2 driven system was extremely close to the Devialet driven system. There was one catch 22, we were using Yamaha PM1D digital audio console's analog output to drive the MC2, but in case of the Devialet we were using the AES output to drive the Devialet and all the D/A conversion was done internally.
The sound this way was as dynamic as with the MC2 but had a smoothness and fluidity, which is probably completely unknown in PA. it was very educational, even the young musicians were extremely surprised. Hope to try dual mono Devialets soon in the same situation.

 

[Orb]

Thanks Ferenc,
definitely useful info and look forward to your thoughts on dual mono when you get the chance.
Definitely worth a listen even if just curious.

Thanks again
Orb

 

[bernardl]

Well...

So no dual mono yet for you Bernard
Orb

Well, that is obviously very appealing, but I probably cannot afford it for now.

The next step is the replacement of my current B&W 804s by a pair of Wilson Benesch Vector, interestingly some of the most exciting speaker in years in my view, yet nearly un-heard of due to the total lack of advertisement from WB in audio publications (it seems this is now starting to change). This alone would be an interesting, if dirty, story to look into.

Anyway, the Vector is, in my view, one of the most logical match for the D-Premier. They share the same DNA of un-compromised innovation, amazing quality per gr/cubic foot and cleanness of design.

I expect this combo to be a much better all round player than the B&W. The 804s are really amazingly good for jazz (I am weighting my words here) and I don't think I'll see such a huge improvement there, but fall a bit short for more dynamic music like classic or rock.

A bit or room tuning will be next and then perhaps dual mono.

Cheers,
Bernard

 

[Orb]

Heya Bernard.
Before putting the money down on the Benesch Vector,
it might be worth listening to a speaker that has a subtly different take on finesse-"romantic" type of presentation with the Devialet as it can help to balance the very neutral sound.
One strong suggestion would be Sonus Faber, starting with the Cremona M speaker and work up the range.
I find they match well with the Devialet.

Just a thought to consider anyway.
Cheers
Orb

 

[bernardl]

Heya Bernard.
Before putting the money down on the Benesch Vector,
it might be worth listening to a speaker that has a subtly different take on finesse-"romantic" type of presentation with the Devialet as it can help to balance the very neutral sound.
One strong suggestion would be Sonus Faber, starting with the Cremona M speaker and work up the range.
I find they match well with the Devialet.
Orb

Thanks Ord.

I'll consider that. Now, I love neutrality. It is almost philosophical, why add romantism to the version chosen by the engineer who created the record?

Cheers,
Bernard

 

[Orb]

So did I until I listened to Sonus Faber more recent speakers
I admit that some of the weaknesses can be heard when compared to a very good speaker, but it does a lot that sounds good from a preference perspective.
Well I say romantic but it is all relative, tubes would be viewed as being more romantic even when they are close to neutral.
So definitely worth listening to products even if it sounds like they deviate from neutrality, in many cases it is just shades and not far off the track.

Cheers
Orb

 

[amirm]

As I work in the broadcast video and pro audio, PA industry mainly, I got a chance to try the D-Premier in a real live situation with the help of few musician and engineer friends to use the D-Premier for a small jazz ensemble with a very high-end not at all usual PA sounding Danley SH100B 3 way PA speaker. We had an AB class Mc2 Audio MC1250 amp there, which is generally used for this speaker in a PA situation like this. The MC2 MC1250 is one of the best PA/studio amp ever made, 1250 W at 4 ohm, and easily can drive impedance below 1 ohm. To much of our big surprise there was no real difference between the two amps driving the Danley speaker, which has the impedance minimum somewhere around 2 ohm and generally not easy to drive even it has 98 dB sensitivity. The Devialet has driven it in a roughly 150 sqm room with few dozen people in it. The sound of the MC2 driven system was extremely close to the Devialet driven system. There was one catch 22, we were using Yamaha PM1D digital audio console's analog output to drive the MC2, but in case of the Devialet we were using the AES output to drive the Devialet and all the D/A conversion was done internally.
The sound this way was as dynamic as with the MC2 but had a smoothness and fluidity, which is probably completely unknown in PA. it was very educational, even the young musicians were extremely surprised. Hope to try dual mono Devialets soon in the same situation.

In the last shoot out I did, I found all the switching amplifiers including the Devialet to outperform linear amps in bass frequencies. So I am not surprised that it handled the Danley's well. The trick is whether they can do everything else right as I post earlier in the thread.

 

[bernardl]

So did I until I listened to Sonus Faber more recent speakers

A bit out of topic, but I have had the chance today to listen to a pair of WB Vector driven by excellent Esoteric monoblocs. The source was a high end Sony SACD player.

It was only a 30 mins session and I could only listen to a few tunes so it is difficult to draw final conclusions... but my first impression is that the Vectors are truly amazing performers. They were still lacking 50 hours of break in according to the store person, but the width of the sound stage, transparency, definition and dynamic were already very impressive. In absolute terms but even more so when considering the relatively small size of these speakers that will be a perfect fit for typical city interiors.

I am looking forward to having the chance to listen to the Devialet combination and will report when I do. Seeing the Vector in the flesh further re-enforced my intuition that these 2 products are born from the same magic comet dust.

Interestingly, the Vectors were positioned less than 2 meters away from a pair of Sonus Faber Cremona M. I love the look of the Sonus Faber speakers and the refinement of their finish. But truth be told, they almost felt rough around the edges compared to the sharp looks of the Vector.

Cheers,
Bernard

 

[Orb]

Now that is funny they were both together when you went to audition the Vector
Keep us informed on your experience with the WB once you have them at home to audition.
Thanks
Orb

 

[bernardl]

Now that is funny they were both together when you went to audition the Vector

Well, they seem to agree with you that the Cremona and the Vector belong to the very same segment.

Cheers,
Bernard

 

[FREND147]

Hi again Orb.

It's been a few weeks since I last posted and you kindly asked me to let you know how I got on whilst experimenting with Devialet. I did indeed try using the the Analogue output of the cd player instead of digital as you suggested. There was a small difference but I wouldn't say it was night and day. For whatever reason, ultimately I seemed to still prefer the digital connection.
There is no doubt that the Devialet is a stunning piece of equipment. It really is an achievement that something so small can sound so good in many respects. My only reservation is that it could do with a bit more balls and wallop when it's asked to get down and get dirty.
I always enjoyed Audio Research pre-amps. I had an Ls16, Ls25 & Ls26 . Infact, the 26 was the last pre amp before going with the Devialet and I didn't really want to get rid of it. It was only the fact that I had so much trouble with valves blowing in my power amp that I decided to move away from valves altogether. My dealer very kindly gave me the option of the Devialet after disposing of the Ls26 & Ref110 on my behalf. As mentioned before, I was initially very taken with the neutrality of the Devialet , and the attraction of having no reliability issues was undeniable, but as time went on and I played more music, I felt it could lack a little drive, especially at higher volumes. The Devialet gets away with boxing way above it's weight for most of the time, but with some types of music you can wish there was a little more "meat" on the bones. Not quite as lean if you like.
A family member is selling an LS 26, and I've recently had a chance to try it again along with a Krell 402 which he is also selling. It really felt like meeting up with a long lost friend. The difference in musical presentation is quite startling. Good as the Krell 402 is, I had to discount it on issues such as size,weight and stand-by power consumption which is 260 watts I believe. Way too expensive to keep running at the price of electricity these days. You can obviously turn the Krell completely off but I found that it took too long to come back on song again afterwards. It really did need to be kept in stand-by mode to sound it's best relatively quickly.
I have now had the opportunity to try an Audio Research Ds450 with the LS 26 . This I think is the ideal middle ground for me. This combo does not have the sheer power of the Krell or the complete neutrality of the Devialet but still manages to sound very weighty, crystal clear and satisfying. It is also more sympathetic to less than perfect recordings. Unfortunately many of my CDs are less than perfect and the Devialet certainly let's me know that.
I'm sure that my concerns with the Devialet could be addressed by adding a second unit, and thus providing the system with much more power. However, as I mentioned before, this is not an option to me @ another 10k.
I have therefore decided to go the way of the LS 26 & DS450, both of which can be obtained at second hand prices.
Should anybody here who is considering taking the step up to Devialet Monos and would like to do so at a reduced cost alternative of purchasing another brand new unit, then please feel free to contact me. I'm down on the south coast in Bournemouth. I will of course advertise the unit through the press etc. As far as I'm aware there isn't another second hand one available. It is obviously a genuine UK supplied unit (Pinewood Music) and is in mint condition.

All the best for now,
Paul.

 

[LL21]

Hi Paul,

Always a challenge to get the whole system right. I've read good things about Devialet and heard it myself (single and mono) and may even have been one of the first people here to note the big improvements in 'monoblocking'. In your case, if you dont wish to do that (totally understandable)...why go with new pre and new amp? why not keep Devialet pre and just go for amp? Or are you selling Devialet to fund both pre and amp?

Just curious, given the very strong positive feedback on its DAC and pre components. good luck in any event...ARC is great stuff.

 

[Orb]

If coming from the ARC LS/ref power amp I can appreciate that you felt the need to change out the Devialet, as IMO the only option in your case and even in mine is/was the dual mono setup.

BTW I have also listened to the LS27/DS450 and I have to say the sound is very good, not quite as delicate or as finessed as the Devialet but it does many things right and has the benefit of being able to subtly tweak the sound that IMO is very important.
And as you say it the Arc setup walks a nice balancing ground, which is how I feel about it as well.

One suggestion for the future, once the LS27 is at a viable price in regards to ex-demo or 2nd hand then try to give it a listen in comparison to the LS26, IMO it is worth the upgrage.

And with you selling the Devialet, hopefully this will happen quickly and smoothly, and definitely will be a great 2nd buy for an existing Devialet owner who wants to go dual mono or someone who wants a bargain reference and very neutral integrated-DAC product.

To put your own position into context, I am mulling over whether to go dual mono Devialet or Ref5/DS450M/DAC8.
If the Devialet had selectable digital settings (I want that slight off neutral sound that maybe a bit but not too much richer-wamer) and greater dynamic swell capability then it would be a no brainer with Devialet being the purchase of choice for me.

Thanks again for your feedback and do not forget to keep us informed in other threads on your new ARC setup
Orb