Sonus Faber Extrema

Blackmorec

Well-Known Member
Feb 1, 2019
747
1,271
213
Of course, apologies for my over long post. Just one summary point before I go silent: current limited amplifiers like the Devialets and the Halcros will definitely not work very well with the Extremas (which are very hungry for current).
The Extrema has a sensitivity of 88dB/W/M, so at 1m distance, 1 watt will produce an SPL of 88dB

Now, lets apply some very simple math to get to a realistic listening position and volume

If we sit 4m (13ft) away from the speaker, we‘ll need 4W for the same 88dB (double the power for doubling of distance)

If we now start to crank up the volume we get the following (For each doubling of input power to the speaker, there will be a 3 dB increase in output)
88dB 4W
91dB 8W
94dB 16W
97db 32W
101db 64W
104dB 128W

Given the Extrema spec calls for a maximum 200W amplifier input, the most you‘re going to get out of them at 4m is about 105dB. If you need more for a larger room or a more distant listening position, then you’ve bought the wrong speaker and you need something that is more sensitive and can handle larger input currents.
Take a look at the Halcro and Devialet specs. 1000w into 6 ohms and 500W into 4 ohms Both have thermal cut-off protection But if you were driving your Extremas flat-out, you’d be using between 12.5% or 25% of either amplifier’s output capability. The reason the cut-off is thermal is that it limits SUSTAINED output rather than instantaneous. But, depending on the mains supply you are using, if its a regular household mains supply based on the typical 1.5mm2 cabling over quite some distance, with lots of questionable junctions then, you will potentially get some voltage drops at high volume (high current demand) which will clearly manifest through a drop in sound quality. If you want to get the most from these speakers you do need to make sure you’re providing the instantaneous current capability they need.
The reason high current amplifiers are recommended for the Extrema are:
1. They’re quite inefficient at 88dB/W/M
2. They need a largish room to operate at their best (plenty of space between them and well away from walls)
3. For a small 2-way speaker they produce great dynamics when the amplifier has sufficient instant current capability and plenty of headroom.
4. They are capable of handling high power transients.
So what you need is an amplifier with around 200W preferably with a mains supply that can respond to the amplifiers’ instantaneous power demands.
 

Raker24

Well-Known Member
Jul 27, 2020
81
81
83
69
The Extremas were also unique in the sense that they did not have any capacitors (supposedly, I never checked myself) in the crossover. Sonus Faber called this "Sine Cap", or "Without Capacitor" in English. The tweeter was protected by a large resistor (although I managed to blow one tweeter in Doha in 1995, playing way too loud with the very first BAT VK5 tube preamp and the Adyton Cordis 3B power amplifier). I am not a technical expert like Blackmorec, so I may be wrong, but it is possible that this unique crossover configuration contributes to the "power hunger" of the Extremas.
 

Blackmorec

Well-Known Member
Feb 1, 2019
747
1,271
213
The Extremas were also unique in the sense that they did not have any capacitors (supposedly, I never checked myself) in the crossover. Sonus Faber called this "Sine Cap", or "Without Capacitor" in English. The tweeter was protected by a large resistor (although I managed to blow one tweeter in Doha in 1995, playing way too loud with the very first BAT VK5 tube preamp and the Adyton Cordis 3B power amplifier). I am not a technical expert like Blackmorec, so I may be wrong, but it is possible that this unique crossover configuration contributes to the "power hunger" of the Extremas.
Hi Raker24,
Yes, thanks to the tweeter’s extra-wide bandwidth and power handling capacity, SF could implement a very gentle 6dB/Octave filter using a parallel inductor rather than the more usual in-line capacitor. A resistor is required to provide the necessary source impedance for the inductor and will of course dissipate a small amount of power over the speakers’ entire frequency range. The heat sink was there to ensure that the resistor remained cool. I checked mine a few times after some ‘head banging sessions‘ but it was never even particularly warm.
As far as electronics go I certainly wouldn’t describe myself as a technical expert, more a well-read lay person who‘s spent 45 years trying to get his hi-fi to sound good :)
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
14,411
2,509
1,448
Great few posts (#61-63)...and ones to remember for any of us who might have a desire to pick up one history's great speakers...
 
  • Like
Reactions: Blackmorec

RDSChicago

Well-Known Member
Nov 12, 2013
135
85
333
Have they arrived?
Yes! They’re here but I need to do some listening. I’ve been out of town and will report back with some critiques. They do make quite a presence on the stands! They’re huge!!
 

DLS

Well-Known Member
Jan 12, 2013
72
95
925
New York
Huge they are, but they will disappear when setup right. So you were able to get proper stands made - that's great! I'm very curious how the Aleph's will drive them, even though they are lowered powered, the quality of that power is superb.
 
  • Like
Reactions: RDSChicago

RDSChicago

Well-Known Member
Nov 12, 2013
135
85
333
The Extremas are simply incredible. Full, rich and dynamic. I can’t stop listening to them. I’m playing all genres and not finding faults. The Aleph 0’s and my 120 watt 845 tube monoblocks seem to drive them with ample authority.. Based on the recommendations in this thread I’d love to try them with a mega-powered solid state amp. If anyone In the Chicago area wants to loan me one, please let me know!
 
  • Like
Reactions: MarcelNL and DLS

Gregm

Well-Known Member
Mar 14, 2019
525
381
155
France
The Extrema has a sensitivity of 88dB/W/M, so at 1m distance, 1 watt will produce an SPL of 88dB

Now, lets apply some very simple math to get to a realistic listening position and volume

If we sit 4m (13ft) away from the speaker, we‘ll need 4W for the same 88dB (double the power for doubling of distance)

If we now start to crank up the volume we get the following (For each doubling of input power to the speaker, there will be a 3 dB increase in output)
88dB 4W
91dB 8W
94dB 16W
97db 32W
101db 64W
104dB 128W

Given the Extrema spec calls for a maximum 200W amplifier input, the most you‘re going to get out of them at 4m is about 105dB. If you need more for a larger room or a more distant listening position, then you’ve bought the wrong speaker and you need something that is more sensitive and can handle larger input currents.
Take a look at the Halcro and Devialet specs. 1000w into 6 ohms and 500W into 4 ohms Both have thermal cut-off protection But if you were driving your Extremas flat-out, you’d be using between 12.5% or 25% of either amplifier’s output capability. The reason the cut-off is thermal is that it limits SUSTAINED output rather than instantaneous. But, depending on the mains supply you are using, if its a regular household mains supply based on the typical 1.5mm2 cabling over quite some distance, with lots of questionable junctions then, you will potentially get some voltage drops at high volume (high current demand) which will clearly manifest through a drop in sound quality. If you want to get the most from these speakers you do need to make sure you’re providing the instantaneous current capability they need.
The reason high current amplifiers are recommended for the Extrema are:
1. They’re quite inefficient at 88dB/W/M
2. They need a largish room to operate at their best (plenty of space between them and well away from walls)
3. For a small 2-way speaker they produce great dynamics when the amplifier has sufficient instant current capability and plenty of headroom.
4. They are capable of handling high power transients.
So what you need is an amplifier with around 200W preferably with a mains supply that can respond to the amplifiers’ instantaneous power demands.
At 4m away, I think the Extremas are even less sensitive! We lose 6dB with every doubling of distance (OK that's a textbook value), so at 4 ms we would lose around 12 dB. In other words, only about 76dB will reach the listener at 4 metres (88-12). The 200W max input (is that peak or sustained, I wonder) the Extremas will output ~98dB SPL at the listening position. At 128W they will do 97dB.
On papaer, anything less than a 250+W amp will not cut it. Interestingly, my Kraft did cut it when I tried these at home for a while -- but then, I don;t listen too loud.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Blackmorec

RDSChicago

Well-Known Member
Nov 12, 2013
135
85
333
Reviving my thread after having listened to the Extremas for a few months. First of all, I agree that they're keepers. I am enjoying them immensely with all kinds of music. I also have Reference 3A Reflectors, another large monitor. So far I've run the Extremas with MasterSound PF100 monoblocks (120 wpc 845 tube amp), Pass Aleph 0 monoblocks (75 wpc Class A) and a Purifi amp (200 wpc). I note that many of you who posted believe they need high-powered and high-current solid state amps. A friend just fully restored a Mark Levinson 432 amp with an authorized ML service center (400 wpm @ 8 ohms doubling down to 800 wpc) which I can purchase without breaking the bank along with an ML 380s preamp. Do you recommend this amplifier and preamp? If not, what else in the under $5,000 price range (used) should I consider? Thanks!
 

JGlacken

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2011
64
20
913
Not under 5k used, but I wonder how a Luxman M900u would pair with the Extremas?
The Extremas were part of the first high end system I ever heard. Must have been early ‘90s
at Audio Den on Long Island. I don’t remember which amps were being used but we went back and forth from tube to SS. As some of you have said. I should have bought them!
 

Raker24

Well-Known Member
Jul 27, 2020
81
81
83
69
I don't know what they go for used, but Cello monos should be a good match
 

BruceD

VIP/Donor
Dec 13, 2013
1,509
576
540
I don't know what they go for used, but Cello monos should be a good match
Hmm -maybe not:( the PII's could not get a sweat even on my Slamm X'1's-they went back to Joe sadly.

Risky S/H they are not bottom drawer $$'s

BruceD
Slamm2.jpg
 

RDSChicago

Well-Known Member
Nov 12, 2013
135
85
333
Found a just-restored Mark Levinson 432 (2020 boards installed, new caps, resistors raised above the boards to avoid excess heat, etc.) and matching ML preamp to drive the Extremas. So far, it seems like a great match. 400 wpm doubling down to 800 wpm at 4 ohms seems to do the trick with the Extremas. They sound well-driven and musical even at lower values. Very pleased with this combination.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DLS

musicfirst1

VIP/Donor
Mar 8, 2015
504
309
395
Canada
www.musicfirstdistribution.ca
WARNING!!

Just wanted to warn those considering buying used Sonus Faber Speakers, especially the Extremas from Europe, particularly Eastern Europe.

SCAMMERS DOMINATE these 'sales'. We were scammed on a pair of Extremas last year and lost our deposit to the tune of 5000 Euros.

Bottom line, if the price seems too good to be true, it probably is.

I highly recommend an escrow service, or only paying for the speakers upon pickup. Most shipping companies offer this service for an additional surcharge.
 

musicfirst1

VIP/Donor
Mar 8, 2015
504
309
395
Canada
www.musicfirstdistribution.ca
The Extrema has a sensitivity of 88dB/W/M, so at 1m distance, 1 watt will produce an SPL of 88dB

Now, lets apply some very simple math to get to a realistic listening position and volume

If we sit 4m (13ft) away from the speaker, we‘ll need 4W for the same 88dB (double the power for doubling of distance)

If we now start to crank up the volume we get the following (For each doubling of input power to the speaker, there will be a 3 dB increase in output)
88dB 4W
91dB 8W
94dB 16W
97db 32W
101db 64W
104dB 128W

Given the Extrema spec calls for a maximum 200W amplifier input, the most you‘re going to get out of them at 4m is about 105dB. If you need more for a larger room or a more distant listening position, then you’ve bought the wrong speaker and you need something that is more sensitive and can handle larger input currents.
Take a look at the Halcro and Devialet specs. 1000w into 6 ohms and 500W into 4 ohms Both have thermal cut-off protection But if you were driving your Extremas flat-out, you’d be using between 12.5% or 25% of either amplifier’s output capability. The reason the cut-off is thermal is that it limits SUSTAINED output rather than instantaneous. But, depending on the mains supply you are using, if its a regular household mains supply based on the typical 1.5mm2 cabling over quite some distance, with lots of questionable junctions then, you will potentially get some voltage drops at high volume (high current demand) which will clearly manifest through a drop in sound quality. If you want to get the most from these speakers you do need to make sure you’re providing the instantaneous current capability they need.
The reason high current amplifiers are recommended for the Extrema are:
1. They’re quite inefficient at 88dB/W/M
2. They need a largish room to operate at their best (plenty of space between them and well away from walls)
3. For a small 2-way speaker they produce great dynamics when the amplifier has sufficient instant current capability and plenty of headroom.
4. They are capable of handling high power transients.
So what you need is an amplifier with around 200W preferably with a mains supply that can respond to the amplifiers’ instantaneous power demands.
Having owned two pairs of Extremas, while they are remarkable speakers, I will say there is NO way they are 88db sensitive. More likely less than 85... :(
 

sbnx

Well-Known Member
Mar 28, 2017
1,179
1,318
290
A couple notes on the math above. You will get the first doubling of distance for free as you will have two speakers playing. So really you can say if the speaker is 88 db/w/m then it is really 88 db/w/2m and start your calculation from there.

Also as musicfirst points out, one should look at that 88 db efficiency number with a little skepticism. It depends on how it is measured. And is it really 1 watt/meter or is it 2.83V/meter. If the latter then as the impedance of the speaker drops the efficiency will go down. This is one reason I don't like that everyone started specifying 2.83V/m as it is misleading in terms of what you will really get out of the speaker.
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,806
4,698
2,790
Portugal
Having owned two pairs of Extremas, while they are remarkable speakers, I will say there is NO way they are 88db sensitive. More likely less than 85... :(
Martin Colloms measured it Stereophile, it is really 88 dB. However it is a 4 ohm speaker, we should remember that sensitivity is different from efficiency. They need current.

I also owned two pairs, and would not mind listening to a third one if I had an appropriate wide and large room. I have the feeling they would sound great with the VTL Siegfried II' s.
 

Birdwatcher

Well-Known Member
May 29, 2018
218
98
135
EU
What is for you an appropriate wide and large room. Resp. what do you recommend for set up on the distances for basis width, distance behind the speakers and to the sidewalls?
 

Puroplatino

Member
Jun 11, 2021
12
2
10
47
BTW - I think SF made "only" a thousand pairs and they almost never come up for sale. I suspect I could get close to original MSRP for them at this point, maybe more with the full set of replacement drivers and x-over. How many components in this crazy audiophile world can you say that of?
You can get more than that. I finally found a mint pair and spent well over €10k for them. P.S. Don’t sell them, they are still amazing and will only continue to go up in price. The real deal now a days is the Electa Amator I. They are still reasonable and can be found in good shape for about €3-€3.5k in Italy. I’m looking for a pair now for a third room. Cheers and great thread guys. I love that we can still appreciate this speaker over 30 years later. On another note whomever preferred the Franco Serblin sound signature should hear his Ktema speakers. I would love a pair of those. Amazing to say the least.
 

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing