DarTZeel and Mcintosh - help in picking amp

[bazelio]

I had 3 sacd players that had variable output and I connected them directly to the power amp.they were stax,accuphase and mcintosh but they all sounded better thru the preamp.most people use preamps.

Then use the preamp. You like active preamps. I know many people who don't use active preamps. That doesn't further my argument though.

 

[Addicted to hifi]

I suppose this must be the case.. why else would a pre-amp something cost 10k.. and even in case of DarTZeel way more..

I’ll do a blind test later today.. but It seemed obvious to me.. I only listened a few minutes after setting it up like that.. ( Dartzeel as pre-amp ) going to test also with a Mc2700 As pre

Then use the preamp. You like active preamps.

I guess I do.

 

[germinal]

Try both ways and let us know if it’s better with a preamp or not.

In all honesty - after more listening - I have to admit the only difference seems to be the loudness.. can play louder with pre than straight from the DAC…

it’s splitting hairs otherwise…

 

[germinal]

No. The active preamp is usually not needed. In some situations it actually is. The Lamm phono stage output, for example, is designed for preamplification. I.e. you *have* to buy another Lamm box, or two, or three depending on how much you want to drop on a preamp. But more often than not, you are just preferring the coloration ("additional dynamics, bass slam, etc") that your preamp is adding. Some call that a "sin of commission". Where source and amplifier impedances are well matched and the system otherwise has sufficient gain (the majority of cases), a pre-amplifer can not technically improve anything. If you like the preamp's sound, though, I'm not trying to stop you from using it. Enjoy. I am, however, suggesting to @germinal, who is clearly on a limited budget, that he stop using price as a proxy for better sound and not be tempted into "logic" like "why would DarTZeel make an expensive preamp if it didn't improve the sound". This is coming from a DarTZeel owner and fan, too.

Thanks for the advice..

Yes my budget it limited.. 40k on a system seems already a bit outrageous to me.. I know others buy speakers costing 50k.. but yeah..

Anyways.. today got a friend over.. we did some more listening.. he also preferred the “warmer” ( his words ) sound of the mcintosh.. but he had to admin the Dartzeel having a slightly wider soundstage/image and a bit more accurate.. ‘micro detail’ bit cleaner.. he liked em both..

but then when I said the Dartzeel was 4 times the price of the Macintosh he said.. well that’s an easy decision then

Taking everything in consideration.. to have the same power as the Dartzeel I need the mc1502 and to be able to use a turntable I need a pre.. which means difference in price is not so much anymore..

Anyways I want to thank everyone for their advice and input

 

[Gregm]

You might want to try out a Musical Fidelity 8000 nuvista. It's an integrated and it sounded very good to me -- subejctively more detailed (less muddy) than the big Mac. It's quite powerful, but I don't remember the actual specs. I do remember it costing around 10k euro, so not ruinous!

 

[andromedaaudio]

Or audiaflight

 

[bazelio]

In all honesty - after more listening - I have to admit the only difference seems to be the loudness.. can play louder with pre than straight from the DAC…

it’s splitting hairs otherwise…

In a high resolution system, you will start to hear the difference. No preamp is transparent, and removing it from the system entirely will be distinctly audible. This of course assumes you have a high quality attenuator in your DAC. If you don't, then bypassing the DAC's attenuator and going into a preamp could be a net win. It all depends.

 

[cal3713]

Then use the preamp. You like active preamps. I know many people who don't use active preamps. That doesn't further my argument though.

There are technical arguments, and then there is the sound. I ran without a preamp for many years because I was a scientist and the logic is unassailably sound. And then I tried a preamp and the sound improved in every dimension. Then I got a better preamp and it happened again.

I do think my ears like a touch of second harmonic distortion though. It can help create a stronger illusion of three-dimensionality (according to Nelson Pass).

 

[bazelio]

Thanks for the advice..

Yes my budget it limited.. 40k on a system seems already a bit outrageous to me.. I know others buy speakers costing 50k.. but yeah..

Anyways.. today got a friend over.. we did some more listening.. he also preferred the “warmer” ( his words ) sound of the mcintosh.. but he had to admin the Dartzeel having a slightly wider soundstage/image and a bit more accurate.. ‘micro detail’ bit cleaner.. he liked em both..

but then when I said the Dartzeel was 4 times the price of the Macintosh he said.. well that’s an easy decision then

Taking everything in consideration.. to have the same power as the Dartzeel I need the mc1502 and to be able to use a turntable I need a pre.. which means difference in price is not so much anymore..

Anyways I want to thank everyone for their advice and input

Other routes would be a passive autoformer "preamp" such as this which will beat nearly every preamp out there. (I use the silver version, although it was a DIY build). Send an inquiry to them about a free in-home demo. You could then spend the extra money on an upgraded DAC if you wished, a better turntable, phonostage, etc.

 

[DasguteOhr]

the only time where it was better in my hifi story without a preamp with wadia 9 dac and pass 0 monos otherwise the preamp always won.
if you swap poweramps you are more flexible with preamp. passive preamps are always dependent on the input resistance of the power amp, whether it sounds good or not

 

[howiebrou]

Congrats on your Diptyque speakers. I like them a lot especially the lower end models which seem a veritable bargain to me. As for integrated amps you seem to be trying to get the Dartzeel to justify it's entry price compared to the Mcintosh. May be it's a bit of ownership pride in having a red and gold amp gleaming on your shelf. If so, you will inevitably long for it. Personally, if I liked the Mcintosh more, I would go for that.

 

[bazelio]

There are technical arguments, and then there is the sound. I ran without a preamp for many years because I was a scientist and the logic is unassailably sound. And then I tried a preamp and the sound improved in every dimension. Then I got a better preamp and it happened again.

I do think my ears like a touch of second harmonic distortion though. It can help create a stronger illusion of three-dimensionality (according to Nelson Pass).

A lot of people like the sound of H2. You're not alone. I've played with Nelson's H2 generator (link here). It's a fun gadget. But I tend to prefer a simple or more minimalist signal chain. The key is to have a source that actually sounds good and doesn't need to be adulterated by downstream preamps and so forth. I'm not saying I have a distortion-free or perfectly transparent system. That's impossible. But I am saying that my components do have fairly minimalist signal paths and there is no active preamp in the middle. I remember the last California Audio Show which occurred before COVID. My personal best in show room came in second place in the voting. It was a big, bold, extremely alive sounding room that could turn on a dime and be delicate and light-handed with great nuance. One of the most dynamically nimble sounds I'd ever heard. It just sounded amazingly real save for the bass which was a bit loose and boomy as the speakers were simply limited down low. The voting was close apparently, and the room that won best in show was one of my least favorite rooms. It was one of those "ultimate expressions" of flea watt SET into horn rooms. It had warmth and romance. It was laid back and pleasant. It couldn't have been more different from the second place room, my favorite. It had the many of the common SET characteristics, and it didn't sounded alive and nor real. It casted a very distinct hue over everything that was played. So, at least on that day, people were miles apart in terms of what type of sound they preferred. That may be the case in the hobby more generally as well. Horses for courses.

 

[Addicted to hifi]

In all honesty - after more listening - I have to admit the only difference seems to be the loudness.. can play louder with pre than straight from the DAC…

it’s splitting hairs otherwise…

That goes to show a preamp does not degrade the sound at all.

 

[Addicted to hifi]

In all honesty - after more listening - I have to admit the only difference seems to be the loudness.. can play louder with pre than straight from the DAC…

it’s splitting hairs otherwise…

You can also connect more than one component with a preamp.

 

[germinal]

Congrats on your Diptyque speakers. I like them a lot especially the lower end models which seem a veritable bargain to me. As for integrated amps you seem to be trying to get the Dartzeel to justify it's entry price compared to the Mcintosh. May be it's a bit of ownership pride in having a red and gold amp gleaming on your shelf. If so, you will inevitably long for it. Personally, if I liked the Mcintosh more, I would go for that.

I’ve got de DP160’s.. double the price of their also very good DP107s.. but I agree with you.. the DP107 is an awesome speaker for its price point (5k) It also looks stunning!

I decided to go for the Mcintosh..

The C8 as preamp ( cause I need a phono MC)
And the MC1502 as poweramp.

So I’m parting with the Dartzeel..

Cant have it both.. unfortunately

 

[Addicted to hifi]

I’ve got de DP160’s.. double the price of their also very good DP107s.. but I agree with you.. the DP107 is an awesome speaker for its price point (5k) It also looks stunning!

I decided to go for the Mcintosh..

The C8 as preamp ( cause I need a phono MC)
And the MC1502 as poweramp.

So I’m parting with the Dartzeel..

Cant have it both.. unfortunately

A good move.you cart go wrong with mcintosh.

 

[howiebrou]

I’ve got de DP160’s.. double the price of their also very good DP107s.. but I agree with you.. the DP107 is an awesome speaker for its price point (5k) It also looks stunning!

I decided to go for the Mcintosh..

The C8 as preamp ( cause I need a phono MC)
And the MC1502 as poweramp.

So I’m parting with the Dartzeel..

Cant have it both.. unfortunately

Congrats. Please send us some photos. I'm sure not many here have seen the Diptyques in person.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Congrats , seems like you did a good comparison of the 2 amps , thats the way to go .
Afaik Mcintosh is the most sold high end audio amplifier brand in numbers , so they must be doing something right.

 

[bonzo75]

I'm partial to the Dart. But I am curious to hear how you'd compare and contrast it to the Diablo as I've not yet heard that one.

PS there's likely nothing wrong with your ears. It's also great fun to do blind taste tests with whisky and watch people prefer the $50 bottle to the $500 bottle ... Usually only when blindfolded. A lot of things go in to a pricetag, not the least of which is hubris.

Imo such queries contrasting very different components, same with contrasting VDH or Lyra to Koetsu, don't make sense. When some things are very different, either you like one or not. Attributes on a paper don't tell you what one means vs the other. Yes, if two were very close, like one model of Dart vs the other, that could make sense. But Gryphon and dart are just going to make systems sound very different, and one could like one and not the other at all. That should be the only difference.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Welcome to WBF, germinal!

I agree with Marty -- I love this thread!