When do you stop upgrading?

[thedudeabides]

In the case of Lamm / CAT etc , you d best leave it up to the designers of the amps and follow their advice .
They actually know what they are doing

Not necessarily true with CJ. They select "good" sounding tube(s) that are very reliable. In my case, I tried several options and the impact on the sound was quite noticeable and for the better.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I have been enduring for years recommendations to dump my Magico speakers, get out more to hear other stuff, increase exposure and experience, and now roll tubes and swap cartridges in my compromised system recorded on crappy system videos.

Since you dumped your Magico speakers, got out to hear more stuff, and increased your exposure and experience I don't think I, for one, have recommended anything else at all.

 

[Ron Resnick]

My answer to the opening post: Once the components of the planned system are set up I will not be doing any component upgrading.

 

[bonzo75]

My answer to the opening post: Once the components of the planned system are set up I will not be doing any component upgrading.

So if it does not sound right, you won't swap something out?

 

[Ron Resnick]

So if it does not sound right, you won't swap something out?

If it does not sound right to me, then, yes, I will swap out something.

If it sounds right to me but it does not sound right to you, then, no, I won't.

I think you are fussier and more demanding than I am (and I mean this as a complement). I think solving the sound equation to maximize the emotional engagement of girl with guitar is simpler than checking multiple boxes for emotional engagement of symphony orchestra music

Of course if I can achieve a Pareto Optimal outcome -- improving the sound to your ears without diminishing the sound to my ears -- then I am all in favor of that!

 

[bonzo75]

If it does not sound right to me, then, yes, I will swap out something.

Ok, so we are defining upgrading here.

If something sounds wrong, swapping it out is correcting, not upgrading.

If something sounds right, yet we itch to swap it out to get the next model up, or something else that we know is better, that is upgrading, and that is what you will not do

 

[bonzo75]

The question then is, why not. What is this hobby about? Why do people keep pretending it is not much about gear and once they get the sound right they will not change? A large part of this hobby is gear. There are many ways to listen to music outside being an audiophile.

Would someone go to the gym and say I will never try a new exercise ever again? Or will a sports person say I am just not going to try a new style of shot. I will never try a new dish again, just stick to rice and curry once I perfect the recipe?

 

[tima]

I cannot evade the feeling that tube preferences resulting from tube rolling often, though not necessarily always, are arrived at because they mask problems in the system, rather than because they solve them.

Granted your caveat, and that you may not be able to evade that feeling, generally from years of tube rolling, I think otherwise. Changing tubes do not offer enough difference to mask problems. Or as granny says: you can't overcome bad fish with different wine.

Forget NOS tubes, they will also not use the best of current tubes.

I'm not sure about that. First, the electrical specs are typically the same for tube XYZ across manufacturers thus "the best" in sonic terms is a matter of opinion. Secondly the manufacturer wants assurance of availability. Some tube factories do not constantly make the same tubes all the time and sometimes there are bad batches. Though I canna speak to SET world tubes.

Owning a Lamm does not bar tube rolling, but as far as i can tell, it is generally not done because Vladimir has very specific preferences for his tubes which contribute to the sound he wants his gear to produce. I've owned several pieces of Lamm gear, and have never found the sound to be bettered from stock tubes. This is particularly true for output tubes although some folks have swapped input tubes successfully on some gear (i.e., Tele ECC83 inputs on ML-3)

I believe @marty hit the nail on the head - particularly as regards output tubes. There are a few exceptions - as mentioned previously, the M1.2 and M2.2 monos are easy to roll and here good NOS are better than stock. Although most US tube resellers do not carry the Russian brands that Lamm prefers - and their nomenclature is not familiar to many - these can easily be found on the Web.

I do suggest if you own a Lamm preamp or phono that you acquire at least one backup set from Lamm for each chassis. They can be more expensive because of the testing and burn-in time Lamm applies and the reject rate that results from that.

I know one can experiment with tube rolling, I just am not that interested.

With the LP2.1, L1.1 Sig and ML2, I personally don't think tube rolling should be in the cards. Now if you owned an Aesthetix Io ... that's a different story.

Tube rolling can offer variety as a matter of taste - rarely if ever will it change the fundamental sonic characteristics of a piece of gear. Imo tube rolling variety does not come close to cartridge rolling variety.

 

[bonzo75]

Tube rolling can offer variety as a matter of taste - rarely if ever will it change the fundamental sonic characteristics of a piece of gear. Imo tube rolling variety does not come close to cartridge rolling variety.

Have you tube rolled DHTs?

 

[tima]

Have you tube rolled DHTs?

Direct Heated Triodes - no - never owned an amp or pre that used them. I did say "I canna speak to SET world tubes." No doubt there are exceptions.

Can you offer an example of a fundamental change in sonic characteristics that comes from changing tubes?

 

[Ron Resnick]

Ok, so we are defining upgrading here.

If something sounds wrong, swapping it out is correcting, not upgrading.

If something sounds right, yet we itch to swap it out to get the next model up, or something else that we know is better, that is upgrading, and that is what you will not do

I think that all sounds right!

 

[bonzo75]

Direct Heated Triodes - no - never owned an amp or pre that used them. I did say "I canna speak to SET world tubes." No doubt there are exceptions.

Can you offer an example of a fundamental change in sonic characteristics that comes from changing tubes?

Character is a broad term. Changing tubes changes drive, balance (bass/treble), transparency/muddiness, and dynamics. If you compare Amp or phono A to B, where B is fixed, tube rolling A can change your preference whether you like it less or more than B.

With Allnic 3000, I found it less than the half priced Zesto. I mentioned this on Myles' forum and he said I should have swapped the recti. Later, at UK Paul's, I listened to his logans with the stock allnic recti and it lack EE and drive. I swapped the recti and loved the system. After that, he continued to use that (KR recti) and upgraded that recti too. Using KR recti or We recti is quite common among Allnic users. I then went back to the previous place of compare of Zesto, and found that swapping recti not only made me prefer Allnic to the Zesto, but also to a phono priced almost twice (the name escapes me, it is the Greek phono that Kronos uses in a two box for their phono)

In fact I don't pay any attention to Allnic reports with the stock recti. Check the forum you will find all happy Allnic users having changed recti. Allnic gear in stock is colored pretty and sluggish and changing valves makes it more neutral and dynamic

This is the write up on Pal's visit https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/the-marvellous-martin-logan-clx-art-–-is-definitely-a-work-of-“art”.21449/post-472845

In another system, we preferred Kiseki to Lyra Atlas and vdh strad when the amp had lesser (muddier, not transparent) 300bs. Next day after changing amp tubes to KR and Elrog (much more transparency, changes to recordings and upstream gear showing through), we preferred Lyra and VDH while kiseki sounded muddied. So, the compromised amp tubes had muddied up everything upstream. We were able to repeat this process, i.e. put the lesser valves back in and make the kiseki sound better.

801a valves - loved the General's system when he had cunninghams in the Mayer pre, as compared to Elrog. Later, I read a shootout in 6 moons with three of the writers and Mayer which confirmed they preferred the other valves to Elrog.

Lampi - there are like thousands of posts across forums. It is pointless trying to assess Lampi without tube rolling. Also, rolling tube changes the gain of the system, as here different valves have different specs and output

211s - quite common to find older NOS Amperex and United and WE tubes transforming. Again, I think it is pointless to assess any such components unless you have the few recommended tubes to try out with it. You will likely reach an incorrect conclusion

Aesthetix IO eclipse reports are the same though I personally have experience tube rolling there. But again I would not go with a report with stock valves

So yes, changing tubes changes what you will conclude about the component as well as the system. Preference will play a role in the conclusion, but midrange, muddiness, bass, transparency, overall balance are all affected.

Noise floor can change drastically with tubes too. You will be able to hear much inflections and contrasts with the quieter ones.

 

[Ron Resnick]

The question then is, why not. What is this hobby about? Why do people keep pretending it is not much about gear and once they get the sound right they will not change? A large part of this hobby is gear. There are many ways to listen to music outside being an audiophile.

Would someone go to the gym and say I will never try a new exercise ever again? Or will a sports person say I am just not going to try a new style of shot. I will never try a new dish again, just stick to rice and curry once I perfect the recipe?

I always credit you for the insight that there are many sub-hobbies to this hobby, and that one can choose one or more of those sub-hobbies.

I don't know about "people" -- I can only tell you about me. I had essentially the same system for at least 12 years with no component upgrades. The one thing I imagine wanting to do someday is try a high power SET amp on the Pendragons.

 

[bonzo75]

I always credit you for the insight that there are many sub-hobbies to this hobby, and that one can choose one or more of those sub-hobbies.

I don't know about "people" -- I can only tell you about me. I had essentially the same system for at least 12 years with no component upgrades. The one thing I imagine wanting to do someday is try a high power SET amp on the Pendragons.

I am not referring to you particularly. The thread has in general taken a tone that upgrading is an evil that should be stopped. Upgrading is the hobby, call it swapping, or trying out new stuff, instead of upgrading.

Maybe, we can differentiate that too. So there is correcting, trying out new stuff, and simply upgrading which is restricted to the next model up even when you are happy with your system and knows the new model does exactly what your current model does, just a bit more. Like from Dartzeel 458 to 468. Silly move!

 

[Ron Resnick]

Oh! Upgrading and swapping out components is literally one of the sub-hobbies. So this is a totally legitimate hobby activity in and of itself!

Many members here just enjoy swapping boxes and trying different components and combinations of components in their systems.

 

[andromedaaudio]

I have been an audiophile since 2003 .
Every month i visited a dealer / show from 2003-2010 .
I bought a WADIA 581 i new (10 K ) based on reviews i bought a young pair of Krell evo 400 s (for which i paid a good price ) Nagra PLP based on reviews .
Iow I burned my fingers a couple of times pretty heavy especially the WADIA what a joke ( shiny luis vuitton box / mediocre sound )


I visit other audiophiles / a dealershow may be 2 3 times a year .
I have had enough , i like my system/ very happy .

By the way marc mickaelson put me on the CAT path more or less , thanks marc

For the rest ....... duh i couldnt care less

 

[Addicted to hifi]

I have being upgrading for the last 35 years and I am still not ready to stop.

 

[tima]

Character is a broad term. Changing tubes changes drive, balance (bass/treble), transparency/muddiness, and dynamics.

I would say 'can change' - not a blanket statement - and not radical change. Changing the fundamental sonic character of a piece of gear - to my way of thinking - is to change it in a way that its sound is unrecognizable from what it was with stock components. Yes you've told the Allnic rectifier story many times.

The thread has in general taken a tone that upgrading is an evil that should be stopped.

Nah - I think you are misreading, but you seem in an a somewhat disagreeable mood at the moment. Some comments you may be taking the wrong way come from people who've used mostly solid-state gear and are just now coming to tubes. An unfamiliarity with tubes is not a case of thinking that upgrading is evil - since that would make the switch to tubes itself as evil. If you've used SS predominantly I can understand a hesitancy to start tube rolling shortly after opening the box of your new tube gear.

Lots of tube swaps are side-ways moves done for variety.

Just look across this and most forums - a lot of conversations about is A better than B. Isn't that about upgrading? An audiophile who never upgrades is pretty rare. But the OPs question is legitimate. Granted some people will never be satisfied and constantly change gear, but some actually find what they want - because they know what they want.

 

[DasguteOhr]

I have been an audiophile since 2003 .
Every month i visited a dealer / show from 2003-2010 .
I bought a WADIA 581 i new (10 K ) based on reviews i bought a young pair of Krell evo 400 s (for which i paid a good price ) Nagra PLP based on reviews .
Iow I burned my fingers a couple of times pretty heavy especially the WADIA what a joke

I visit other audiophiles / a dealershow may be 2 3 times a year .
I have had enough , i like my system/ very happy .

By the way marc mickaelson put me on the CAT path more or less , thanks marc

For the rest ....... duh i couldnt care less

you should have bought a wadia 9er or 27 dac, then made power supply and software upgrade. for me is still a benchmark where many fail

 

[andromedaaudio]

you should have bought a wadia 9er or 27 dac, then made power supply and software upgrade. for me is still a benchmark where many fail

Oh yeah lol .
I then bought a Meitner MA2 in 2014 also supposedly one of the best 1 box players according to reviewers , which resulted in just mediocre sound
Eventually i had enough of this nonsense and downgraded to a ML 360S 16 year old DAC , best digital i ve ever had in my room