State of the industry - Roy Gregory Editorial

[marty]

Power cords yet again? This feels like Groundhog Day. What year is it please?

 

[andromedaaudio]

Its a static industry, same stuff a?l over again
Only thing thats missing still in this thread is the analogue - digital debate.

We need some real new tech to discuss.

A review of the latest magico flagship would be interesting to read.
With measurements please , not only subjective opinions.
As those differ to much from individual to individual


Oh by the way did the review of the big avantgardes incl measurement data , because that will reveal soon enough whether its a coherent / whole or not

 

[Gregm]

Electrical they make no sense as a benefit, nor has anyone being able to show a benefit electrically, as long as they are electrically safe, and ampere appropriate to the device (...)

The things that do make (common) sense are the better connectors: IEC are terrible connections and the more robust, industrial plugs do a better job (call these "audiophile" and they cost 3x as much!).
Ditto with bigger gauge & better quality wire, stranded vs single core, etc.

 

[morricab]

I don’t think a paper written by a company making power cords is any level of evidence at all, funny you would even suggest that as an explanation
yes people prefer certain types of distortion I agree, but that’s also measurable

it’s good in Europe that they are certified by CE

i am not talking about preference of correlation, I am talking about it having no measurable effect at all
if you like a 300b yes you like the distortion profile, but I can also see that, and go ok that’s what it produces and you like it

with power cords it’s not really the same

we don’t listen to AC, the average home has 2-3% distortion at the wall, so you place you 2 metres of power cable after the 20 metres in your building, and given its high quality it conducts that 3% distortion beautifully to your audio device

but all that nasty distortion, is then converted to DC by you devices power supply , no more distortion

audiophiles are enamred to good power supplies, for obvious reasons

the majority of noise and distortion that predominant from any device is self induced eg the 300b amplifier , and has nothing to do with the power cord which can have no real impact in a well designed power supply , which most audiophiles would strive to buy

when I plug an expensive power cord into an competently designed audio device, we see nothing significant happen in noise or distortion profile or frequency response so there can be no preference as I say it doesn’t make any sense

Your measurement is not as sensitive as your ear...if it was then it would make sense. OR there are small differences you see but you are dismissing them as "insignificant" without justification.

 

[morricab]

Its a static industry, same stuff a?l over again
Only thing thats missing still in this thread is the analogue - digital debate.

We need some real new tech to discuss.

A review of the latest magico flagship would be interesting to read.
With measurements please , not only subjective opinions.
As those differ to much from individual to individual


Oh by the way did the review of the big avantgardes incl measurement data , because that will reveal soon enough whether its a coherent / whole or not

There isn't and won't be any new tech for the generation of sound waves (speakers) or the electronics...until someone invents an amplification device that is truly linear. Transistors are far from linear as are tubes and this requires effort to "linearize" them, which can do more damage than the non-linearity of the device itself.

Speakers? Everything under the sun has been tried to generate soundwaves, including: Plasma, bending waves in several configuration, about any material you can imagine including toxic beryllium, carbon fiber, various sandwich constructions, ribbons, horns, electrostatics, and diamond.

So, while we can speculate on what an amp made from a truly linear amplification device might be like, I don't think there is a true analog for a speaker.

You would need a massless, distortionless driver...only plasma even comes remotely close to this... unless someone invents a monolayer nanotube panel driven by electrostatics or something...but it will bend and create distortion. There was the Hill Plasmatronic speaker in the 1970s that actually had a Plasma midrange/tweeter! I think it went down to around 700Hz...good luck getting a plasma to cover the whole range without burning down the house! It also might make a lot of self-noise (it is a big flame afterall).

 

[RCanelas]

BTW1, all my power cables are certified. Nordost, Transparent and Audioquest, to refer just to three known brands are all certified, otherwise they would not enter the CE market.

Just a reminder that CE certification is (or can be) self assessed and attributed.

The fines are brutal, but there are still plenty of products in the market, mostly coming from outside of Europe, that would never pass inspection.

 

[microstrip]

Francisco, after reading the white paper from Shunyata, how many Shunyata power cords did you buy and insert into your system?

The paper is generic and does not focus on Shunyata tecnhiques - it was addressed many times in WBF. But yes, I have had many Shunyata power cables and power conditioners, even recently, as well as signal cables - still own a few. Excellent sounding cables, my choice depends on the equipment being used. But retrospectively, I think I tried Shunyata cables first time before reading the paper - I got a few power cables and the original Hydra.

 

[microstrip]

I don’t think a paper written by a company making power cords is any level of evidence at all, funny you would even suggest that as an explanation
yes people prefer certain types of distortion I agree, but that’s also measurable

There are no evidences on cables - any type of decent cables. We read the arguments, think and make our own conclusions. People just reading forum posts surely have a different perspective.
Many types of distortion are not easily measurable. Audio Precision people explain it, but yes, they make analyzers you will not rely on them ...

it’s good in Europe that they are certified by CE

Most of the power cables sold in CE are also sold all over the world. So they have indirect certification. BTW, I do not know about you local laws.

i am not talking about preference of correlation, I am talking about it having no measurable effect at all
if you like a 300b yes you like the distortion profile, but I can also see that, and go ok that’s what it produces and you like it

with power cords it’s not really the same

Yes, we know about it. Distortion profiles are just the tip of the iceberg. Consider the signal capacitors in a preamplfier. You change them and the sound characteristics can change dramatically but the distortion profile stays. My ART preamplfier had the same distortion profile as the Lamm LL1 preamplifier - could not distinguish them easily. They sound very different.

IMHO measurements can help understanding problems, but do not correlate with fine sound quality.

we don’t listen to AC, the average home has 2-3% distortion at the wall, so you place you 2 metres of power cable after the 20 metres in your building, and given its high quality it conducts that 3% distortion beautifully to your audio device

but all that nasty distortion, is then converted to DC by you devices power supply , no more distortion

audiophiles are enamred to good power supplies, for obvious reasons

the majority of noise and distortion that predominant from any device is self induced eg the 300b amplifier , and has nothing to do with the power cord which can have no real impact in a well designed power supply , which most audiophiles would strive to buy

when I plug an expensive power cord into an competently designed audio device, we see nothing significant happen in noise or distortion profile or frequency response so there can be no preference as I say it doesn’t make any sense

You are debating power cables like if they were amplifying devices and ignoring noise and distortion paths. They are not. As far as I remember Tim posted a nice summary of the points made by Shunyata long ago in WBF in a power cable thread . I will look for them and post a link.

BTW, designers can easily mimic the distortion of any tube. But the product does not sound like the original tube circuit.

 

[microstrip]

Just a reminder that CE certification is (or can be) self assessed and attributed.

The fines are brutal, but there are still plenty of products in the market, mostly coming from outside of Europe, that would never pass inspection.

Are you saying that plenty of power cables being sold in CE have fraudulent certification? Can you identify them? IMHO the use of qualifiers such as "plenty" are too vague in these cases that can spread distrust and audio gossip.

There is fraud everywhere in any activity - even in diesel cars. But I do not make my mind by non identified statistically irrelevant cases. However if some one points me solid data I appreciate it.

 

[Lee]

Its a static industry, same stuff a?l over again

I could not disagree more. Every category is seeing advancements from better cabinet and cable materials to better grounding techniques to better line conditioning to better digital approaches to better circuits on both tube and solid state.

 

[PeterA]

I could not disagree more. Every category is seeing advancements from better cabinet and cable materials to better grounding techniques to better line conditioning to better digital approaches to better circuits on both tube and solid state.

Perhaps some advancements have been made, but I just heard vintage JBL and TAD speakers that sound as good or better than the later models I’ve heard from either brand. It might well have been the electronics, vintage Neumann cartridge on the old SME arm and rare turntable or the basic wires and power, I do not really know. Perhaps it was simply the set up.

Speaker cabinets, and cables, and grounding and power techniques have changed and sound different, but I am not convinced they always sound better. It depends on what kind of sound you are looking for.

 

[RCanelas]

Are you saying that plenty of power cables being sold in CE have fraudulent certification? Can you identify them? IMHO the use of qualifiers such as "plenty" are too vague in these cases that can spread distrust and audio gossip.

There is fraud everywhere in any activity - even in diesel cars. But I do not make my mind by non identified statistically irrelevant cases. However if some one points me solid data I appreciate it.

I don't want to derail the thread, just wanted to point out a funny detail in CE certification: it only works based on trust, it's a certification that you are willing to pay the price if you're caught doing something bad, not that you did everything right.

In no way do I want to imply that these cables or any other specific product being debated here is fraudulent, I actually do trust these companies to follow the basic electric safety standards, besides being easy it is in their best interest. Plenty of other products on the market (cheap oriental knockoffs for example) don't, and they are still being sold and bought legally, until there is a problem and an investigation

 

[bonzo75]

Why let a 57 page thread die? So to compare state of the industry, here are the first speakers ever made, western electrics

 

[bonzo75]

And to hear the bass that old speakers can do on Hungarian Rhapsodie you need to be modem enough to have created a Facebook account.. Click watch on Facebook in the below image

https://www.facebook.com/100001001513208/posts/5242359162474082

 

[Al M.]

And to hear the bass that old speakers can do on Hungarian Rhapsodie you need to be modem enough to have created a Facebook account.

Modern enough? Facebook is for old people .

 

[tima]

Power cords yet again? This feels like Groundhog Day. What year is it please?

It's Ned Ryerson's birthday.

 

[awsmone]

To keep the thread going I propose the industry has split into two separate areas
low cost highly technically highly components which most people can afford
and Uber expensive components which some are real state of the art representations and others improvements of questionable technical significance which are hard to justify on any technical or subjective basis

 

[awsmone]

It's Ned Ryerson's birthday.

I just read PeterA thread on DDK equipment and “shock and awe” no expensive power cords?
Do you have power cord insurance? Cuz if you do, you could always use a little more Expensive one !Am I right or am I right or am I right, right, right, right?”

 

[awsmone]

And to hear the bass that old speakers can do on Hungarian Rhapsodie you need to be modem enough to have created a Facebook account.. Click watch on Facebook in the below image

https://www.facebook.com/100001001513208/posts/5242359162474082

Sorry, Facebook is so old, I created mine I think 2005, and never used it since, other than it makes no bot Identification a snap , hardly modern, and I use google now

 

[AMR / iFi audio]

To keep the thread going I propose the industry has split into two separate areas
low cost highly technically highly components which most people can afford
and Uber expensive components which some are real state of the art representations and others improvements of questionable technical significance which are hard to justify on any technical or subjective basis

Isn't it what's happening? We have manufacturers who specialise in bringing the excellent price to performance ratio and we have companies that are making the craziest stuff (very often crazy in a good way). I'm certain that even accounting for inflation, good sound was never this affordable. The industry has something for everybody: vinyl, digital, CD, streaming. Of course, there will be some bad apples, but I think it's really good to be an audiophile/music lover in 2022.