State of the industry - Roy Gregory Editorial

[Verastarr]

Asking this question and making those comments may not start an argument, but they do upset the conventional thinking and will likely get some pushback. It’s a worthwhile conversation to have.

I agree with you that the prices are ridiculous, but I recently spoke to a manufacturer who assures me his prices for machining have become equally outrageous. And this is for a product that is not about bling but about mass and lots of metal. Prices have certainly gone up and parts availability is an issue. I think getting the engineers and workers is a problem to. Manufacturers are selling less at higher prices to stay in business.

I also think the high prices are so that the dealers and distributors can offer big discounts. Makes everyone happy.

Hi Peter, thanks for the reply. You are absolutely right about the metals market. And basically COVID is the scapegoat DuJour for people to hike prices and underperform. Add printing 15T and giving it away and we are going to dilute our dollar pretty well here in USA. So I get this to a degree. Let me use a clear example. There is a pair of D'Agostino Monos on AG right now advertised for $209K USD down from 340K Euro. 15 years ago we had no prices like this or even close. The best monos were $60K maybe $80K. At some point people started to parrot "The Chinese wont buy unless I overprice it" ... pssssss. ffffttttt. shhhhhhhh. you get my drift. This excuse to overprice seems to have been the segue into MSRP's that had absolutely ZERO relation to the production cost .. I mean I can understand pricing something four times what it cost you, but ten times ???
And, yes, you are absolutely correct about overpricing to allow discounting, and people are "Happy" with their deal, as they love to brag to one another about the discount, but then we are selling gear based on what ? Not the merit of the value and design, but the discount level instead. Does not take a genius to determine how to close sales then. The weakest close in the world... Discount level. No integrity in that. Its dishonest and manipulative IMHO.
So my point is that gear prices have shot forth in an attempt to make Chinese buyers overpay, which is great for the MFG but kills our value here stateside. Not only is this no good for us, there is not even any breakthrough technology to support the price hike, its just the gear gets more and more big fat and gaudy (See WADAX). So its a cock (Bird) show.. I stand for integrity in our industry and dont want it to degrade the way society seemingly has. It seems like you do as well..

 

[Verastarr]

Depends by what you mean by same old shit, there were some great old shows at Alexis Park and we’ve had some incredible gear in the past too you need to be more specific about the old
david

Thanks David, werent those the days ? I LOVED CES every year.. That for me was the benchmark of what great shows are.. I was never at Alexis, but would run by there and loved the passion there at the "Little guy" show. I was lucky enough to be a little guy at the top of the Venetian showing alongside much more illustrious companies, but man I used to totally look forward to CES... I simply dont think much has changed since then except the prices which are exponentially higher.. almost parodic (If thats a word)

 

[MarcelNL]

really parts and raw material price is just a fraction of RRP....even when Aluminium goes up 100% the RRP should not have to go up by more than 10%, you are not buying raw materials but labour and above anything else; labour and profit margins (both are needed as much as raw materials)

 

[ddk]

Thanks David, werent those the days ? I LOVED CES every year.. That for me was the benchmark of what great shows are.. I was never at Alexis, but would run by there and loved the passion there at the "Little guy" show. I was lucky enough to be a little guy at the top of the Venetian showing alongside much more illustrious companies, but man I used to totally look forward to CES... I simply dont think much has changed since then except the prices which are exponentially higher.. almost parodic (If thats a word)

Biggest change is that it’s not fun anymore!

Prices are what they are and they’ll go up even higher given our times but like you for the most I hear nothing new; and good!

david

 

[microstrip]

(...) There is a pair of D'Agostino Monos on AG right now advertised for $209K USD down from 340K Euro. 15 years ago we had no prices like this or even close. The best monos were $60K maybe $80K. (...)

The Lamm ML3 was introduced in 2008 (14 years ago, Ok, ) and this model is now priced in Europe at euro 144690.

High prices are not a feature of the 2020's, although they vulgarized . Another example fom a 2002 high-end guide - a Koetsu Gold Pr listed for euro 14770.

 

[Lee]

I’m sitting here trying to imagine my Porsche friends bitch about price and complain that performance has been stagnant.

Nope, can’t imagine it. They are too busy talking about recent track day fun and faster lap times.

What is it about audio that attracts such a joyless group of people living in the past to audio fora?

P.S. A large part of the price increases has been the emergence of an ultra-luxury segment in high end audio. That is good because it subsidizes less expensive gear and injects new tech into lower priced items.

 

[rando]

Ah, that mystical future of disassembling a Fluance or Ortofon Blue to repair AF0 and Etsuro Gold.

Ultra but not quite hyper joyful over the prospects.

Speaking of, the future that is, haven't Porsche and MB openly stated they will cease production of road cars to become (even larger) design houses?

 

[Lee]

Speaking of, the future that is, haven't Porsche and MB openly stated they will cease production of road cars to become (even larger) design houses?

I don’t recall reading that.

 

[rando]

I don’t recall reading that.

It is true.

Thought I don't wish to have missed here is doing too good a job for too long with the same elements can lead to realization your best work is soon to be behind you. It can also still lie ahead.

A fair number of companies that had the budgets to produce storied audio gear moved on to other industries with problems fitting their ability. Many can build, few can pull together all of the elements to design a fully developed product at the high end of the high end that will set a standard to be returned to. Which is the lump proving hard to swallow. We can communicate with craft studying other planets and have mass acceptance of mp3 for personal listening. Just a small gap has opened.

Worth noting there is effectively no sophism expressed here for stating an entire month was spent enjoyably interacting with flea amps while multiple well sorted systems sat unused. That middle ground where mass produced parts swell the ranks of low and mid fi does rankle a bit. While I fully appreciate the interior of your statement as being optimistic. That your stock in trade is commonality of ideas anyone with suitable interest can forumulate and feed off. You might have to come up with stronger negatives to make positives out of the ones in circulation.

 

[fbhifi]

In the US one of the constant headline news items is about rising inflation and how it is now affecting everyday life. Up until just months ago the Fed was trying to raise inflation. Now in an overdue pivot they are frantically endeavoring to lower what they wanted to raise just last year. They pumped $20T into the US economy in the last few years which has only added jet fuel to to the raging inflationary fire they, arguably started. The Fed started their extraordinary monetary manipulation after the Great Recession in 2008. They were emboldened by their success in being instrumental in stopping the world’s financial systems from implosion and thought they had the ability to pull off another miracle after Covid hit 26 months ago. They are finding out that it’s quite east to start a fire, but much more challenging to put one out.

What does all of this have to do with seemingly overpriced audio equipment?

Hyper inflation in high end audio equipment really took hold after the 2008 period and has accelerated steadily until it was supercharged in 2020 by Covid relief liquidity entering and manifesting itself in the market. One after another of seemingly impossibly high priced components, of all different types, begin to show up and curiously to sell. The audio press sees this impossible sell-thru occurring and eats it up, which broadens exposure of this gear and then, of course, one can blame the Chinese Hyper Price phenomenon as a contributing factor.

Going forward, I believe, we will see a handful of companies successfully compete and sell a handful of hyper priced super components annually, while the majority of Johny come Latelys who recently entered the market to chase these huge potential profit margins fall by the wayside.

Regarding whether any of these pieces are worth their high prices, beauty (value) is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[Lee]

It is true.

Thought I don't wish to have missed here is doing too good a job for too long with the same elements can lead to realization your best work is soon to be behind you. It can also still lie ahead.

A fair number of companies that had the budgets to produce storied audio gear moved on to other industries with problems fitting their ability. Many can build, few can pull together all of the elements to design a fully developed product at the high end of the high end that will set a standard to be returned to. Which is the lump proving hard to swallow. We can communicate with craft studying other planets and have mass acceptance of mp3 for personal listening. Just a small gap has opened.

Worth noting there is effectively no sophism expressed here for stating an entire month was spent enjoyably interacting with flea amps while multiple well sorted systems sat unused. That middle ground where mass produced parts swell the ranks of low and mid fi does rankle a bit. While I fully appreciate the interior of your statement as being optimistic. That your stock in trade is commonality of ideas anyone with suitable interest can forumulate and feed off. You might have to come up with stronger negatives to make positives out of the ones in circulation.

Can you state this in plain English?

 

[rando]

If it were possible to discern where plain English was lacking I would certainly attempt to.


Edit:

Can certainly look if auto executive interview(s) have been scrubbed from the internet.

The rest politely stepped back acidic elements key to good humorous riposte. I felt your gleeful informal interview was misplaced inside a discussion on a glass ceiling. Whereabouts of its existence in that high octane world were noted.

 

[andromedaaudio]

In the US one of the constant headline news items is about rising inflation and how it is now affecting everyday life. Up until just months ago the Fed was trying to raise inflation. Now in an overdue pivot they are frantically endeavoring to lower what they wanted to raise just last year. They pumped $20T into the US economy in the last few years which has only added jet fuel to to the raging inflationary fire they, arguably started. The Fed started their extraordinary monetary manipulation after the Great Recession in 2008. They were emboldened by their success in being instrumental in stopping the world’s financial systems from implosion and thought they had the ability to pull off another miracle after Covid hit 26 months ago. They are finding out that it’s quite east to start a fire, but much more challenging to put one out.

What does all of this have to do with seemingly overpriced audio equipment?

Hyper inflation in high end audio equipment really took hold after the 2008 period and has accelerated steadily until it was supercharged in 2020 by Covid relief liquidity entering and manifesting itself in the market. One after another of seemingly impossibly high priced components, of all different types, begin to show up and curiously to sell. The audio press sees this impossible sell-thru occurring and eats it up, which broadens exposure of this gear and then, of course, one can blame the Chinese Hyper Price phenomenon as a contributing factor.

Going forward, I believe, we will see a handful of companies successfully compete and sell a handful of hyper priced super components annually, while the majority of Johny come Latelys who recently entered the market to chase these huge potential profit margins fall by the wayside.

Regarding whether any of these pieces are worth their high prices, beauty (value) is in the eye of the beholder.

May be the best way to play this is buy with a 5 year loan .
Profit from still low lending rates and pay back with inflated money.

5 % loan versus 10 % annual inflation ( which will get much worse)

 

[Lee]

If it were possible to discern where plain English was lacking I would certainly attempt to.

It appears the reply was written by an AI bot. Lots of gibberish.

 

[rando]

Lee, I just posted an edited response.

 

[Ron Resnick]

"What is it about audio that attracts such a joyless group of people . . ."

I think this is a fair question. Do outdoorsy people into camping; sailors into boats; speedsters into sports cars and automobile racing; electronics people into amateur radio; firearms enthusiasts into target shooting; collectors into collecting art, stamps, bottles, daguerreotypes, coins, antique cameras; etc.; experience the contentiousness we audiophiles experience? In my personal experience -- with respect to my other hobbies -- my answer is "no."

But it might also be a misleading question.

In my personal experiences in this hobby the in-person, in-real-life experiences are monumentally more friendly and less contentious than some of the on-line experiences.

So maybe the issue is not audio hobbyists versus non-audio hobbyists; maybe the issue is on-line keyboard warrior-ism versus in-real-life interactions.

 

[rbbert]

Some other hobbyist internet boards and facebook groups get contentious, and the letters sections in hobbyist magazines often are. It does seem to be worse for home audio.

 

[jep123]

I think this is a fair question. Do outdoorsy people into camping; sailors into boats; speedsters into sports cars and automobile racing; electronics people into amateur radio; firearms enthusiasts into target shooting; collectors into collecting art, stamps, bottles, daguerreotypes, coins, antique cameras; etc.; experience the contentiousness we audiophiles experience? In my personal experience -- with respect to my other hobbies -- my answer is "no."

But it might also be a misleading question.

In my personal experiences in this hobby the in-person, in-real-life experiences are monumentally more friendly and less contentious than some of the on-line experiences.

So maybe the issue is not audio hobbyists versus non-audio hobbyists; maybe the issue is on-line keyboard warrior-ism versus in-real-life interactions.

In the country where I live we have the same with reg to online hifi- forums that are really hostile and toxic. We have the «measurement is everything« group vs « I believe what I am hearing and does not give a crap about measurements» group. It goes on and on and don`t get me started on the endless cable discussions. Then you have people that thinks that all expensive gear is a rip off etc etc etc.

It` s like hifi brings out the worst in people and that is really a shame, it should be the opposite. I am not saying that every thread or topic is like this, but it is too much. A lot of frustrated and angry people in this hobby it seems….

 

[awsmone]

I think this is a fair question. Do outdoorsy people into camping; sailors into boats; speedsters into sports cars and automobile racing; electronics people into amateur radio; firearms enthusiasts into target shooting; collectors into collecting art, stamps, bottles, daguerreotypes, coins, antique cameras; etc.; experience the contentiousness we audiophiles experience? In my personal experience -- with respect to my other hobbies -- my answer is "no."

But it might also be a misleading question.

In my personal experiences in this hobby the in-person, in-real-life experiences are monumentally more friendly and less contentious than some of the on-line experiences.

So maybe the issue is not audio hobbyists versus non-audio hobbyists; maybe the issue is on-line keyboard warrior-ism versus in-real-life interactions.

Listening to music is joyful, whether live or in your home
i suspect it is the format of discussion, where we are parsing things, and clashes of personal experience or preference
I think this is very different from someone coming to your home and saying have you thought of moving your speakers one inch to the left

 

[the sound of Tao]

Possibly a range of factors can play in here. Music can certainly create a much deeper or more immediate connection especially for those so atuned. Music by its more abstract nature can tend to create less sense of separation and may bring us together more often… words can tend towards dissecting and separating us more distinctly.

Music that we don’t appreciate can appear to us a bit more just as different and while there can be angst for some in certain types of music it may translate often more just as a disconnect. Whereas words and thoughts also carry with them always a polar position.

Then in terms of posting thoughts the expressed sits there more open to being read wider within terms of the intended feelings whereas speech is at least modified by tone. An even more information packed and expressive face to face dialogue is informed by our facial expression and tone and we can also see the feelings our words create better as feedback and more immediately respond and modify if our intention is to have a more positive interchange. Text on its own simply carries less information and can seem rawer or be interpreted as more bare or even bare faced and more easily misread or read outside of intention or context.

Add to that the passionate nature of our hobby and the tendency to draw also people who can be highly analytically charged and even compulsive and you’ve got a recipe for some levels of volatility. Certainly though forums then seem to drive people to latch more fiercely onto their ideas.