State of the industry - Roy Gregory Editorial

[microstrip]

I think this is a fair question. Do outdoorsy people into camping; sailors into boats; speedsters into sports cars and automobile racing; electronics people into amateur radio; firearms enthusiasts into target shooting; collectors into collecting art, stamps, bottles, daguerreotypes, coins, antique cameras; etc.; experience the contentiousness we audiophiles experience? In my personal experience -- with respect to my other hobbies -- my answer is "no."

But it might also be a misleading question.

In my personal experiences in this hobby the in-person, in-real-life experiences are monumentally more friendly and less contentious than some of the on-line experiences.

So maybe the issue is not audio hobbyists versus non-audio hobbyists; maybe the issue is on-line keyboard warrior-ism versus in-real-life interactions.

In fact most of us are happy posters - we share our experiences with great systems and great people. Most of us are fascinated with current possibilities of stereo and the diversity of approaches we can find in the hobby and the continuous improving, even in small evolutionary steps, of our systems. We are now able to understand our systems and the hobby better than ever, our knowledge sometimes being that we must accept that most aspects can't be fully understood, just empirically accepted or dogmatically denied.

However, I can understand that people who think that stereo sound reproduction has got a peak in sound quality long ago and current standards are inferior to those of the past find little convergence with the majority that feels that sound stereo sound reproduction has been improving continuously along the years and find great pleasure improving their systems.

BTW, I do not think that the source of passionate debate is not my equipement is better than yours - it is deeper than that. It is mostly my objective in sound reproduction is better than yours!

Edit - I wrote this post a few hours ago. Now find that I am just repeating some ideas that have posted meanwhile, consider it as a summary.

 

[morricab]

I think the old adage, "Comparison is the death of joy" applies here. We all need to learn to enjoy what we have and not be envious or depressed if a friend has better gear or, in many cases, perceived better gear. Steve Rochlin is right to say enjoy the music. If it makes you happy then that's all that matters.

It's really a hobby for most of us and in some cases a vocation as well. In my role at TAS and Plus, I would say read as many reviews as possible but just use them to create a short list of items of interest. Then go to a dealer and hear the products and find what fits your preferences. That's all that matters, not some other guy's opinion. After all, you are the one who has to live with the decision.

One big caveat: be careful with second tier brands because that can harm resale value which limits opportunities to upgrade.

Another observation: setup is so important as I have learned in my travels with Jim Smith working on several friends' systems. The vast majority of audiophiles just don't get the basics right and that is the difference of 50% of achievable sound and 100% of achievable sound.

Are you seriously advocating only buying big name brands because you shoukd always have your eye on the next purchase and so should worry about resale???
Seems clear where your allegiances lie...

 

[Lee]

...FWIW it didn't read as a lecture to me. He runs a mag and his comments are influenced by that experience. I can sort all that out.

The "second tier" comment was odd, but I don't really know what that means...other than expensive gear holds it's value? Maybe.

Second tier was maybe not the best word I could use. I will explain. I was thinking about some friends of mine who have bought more boutique brands which at the time seemed like a good bargain in terms of sound value for the dollar. Later they realized some of the product's shortcomings or had trouble getting service or just moved on to a different product. They then tried to sell the gear and either were not able to or took a big hit on the resale.

In hindsight, boutique brands were what I meant. Some boutique brands are well supported and may maintain their value on a more normal basis but there are many out there that are not.

 

[PeterA]

Are you seriously advocating only buying big name brands because you shoukd always have your eye on the next purchase and so should worry about resale???
Seems clear where your allegiances lie...

Lee is also acknowledging another issue in the current state of the hobby: many people lack the set up skills to truly optimize their systems. I agree with him on this. I knew next to nothing about set up, and now only know a bit more. My dealer helped me, but the real issue, rarely discussed, is that many dealers don't set up the gear as they should, and people are not buying all of their gear from local dealers anymore. This necessitates the services of people like Jim Smith and Sterling Trayle(SP) to optimize system sound. It would be great if there were more discussion in this area.

 

[Lee]

Are you seriously advocating only buying big name brands because you shoukd always have your eye on the next purchase and so should worry about resale???
Seems clear where your allegiances lie...

No, as I explain above, I am simply urging a buyer to be cautious about boutique brands that may not hold their value as well.

Both of our magazines review loads of gear that is outside of the "big brands".

In fact, we covered the Aries Cerat room just recently at Axpona.

 

[Lee]

Why don’t you put them head to head with a blind panel...call it “Then and Now”...see which they prefer...it would be interesting what gets “destroyed “...you might be shocked.

Our readers are informed and experienced enough to understand the great leaps in playback that digital gear has made since the ML player was released.

It might be fun to listen to JS Audio's WAMM serial #1 and then head over and hear the WAMMs in Jacob's house. That would illustrate some cool differences in sound over time. The JS Audio room at Axpona was excellent but fascinating as well because you could hear familiar family traits in the Wilson line when you then visited the excellent rooms of Quintessence.

 

[Lee]

Also to clarify my point on resale. I believe that most audiophiles will upgrade their components over time. So resale is important as it provides more opportunities to upgrade for more reasonable money. That is the same as suggesting people ignore all but the biggest brands but really that they look for established brands. One example might be Doshi. I love Nick's amps and have his stereo amp which is fantastic in every way. Nick is very established in the pro audio community and has been around for over ten years I believe in consumer audio. He and Jeff Joseph put together another fantastic room at Axpona. Doshi Audio is a boutique brand but likely one that is not going away soon. However, a new brand 1-2 years old still bringing prototype speakers to shows is higher risk.

That's just economics. There are boutique watch brands as well but often they don't get the appreciation in value of the Big Three.

Or...you can gamble a bit and buy the lesser-known, lesser-established gear. But I just want people to know the added risk they are taking.

 

[microstrip]

(...) I don't think anyone is arguing that there are no new technologies. Digital is certainly advancing, but some old CD players still hold up, and some of us think that some sound better than some/most/all streaming. Speaker cabinets vibrate less with the new materials. Drivers are stiffer too. Cables are fancier and purer and claim lower noise. Technologies march forward, and there is progress. I think some people are simply questioning whether technology inevitably marching forward means that products inevitably sound better. (...)

Peter,

In an hobby ruled by preference it is natural than some people prefer products from old technology, we should respect them. But the question is that most of us use and seem to prefer the new technologies. If for example you look at the Taiko Audio thread you will find that more than 100 WBF members own Extreme's. Tim owns modern technology turntable and speakers, as well as Steve. Most of our more participated threads are in modern technology products.
Even the often referred vinyl growth is mostly supported by digital vinyl, incorporating modern technology.

Also besides preference old technologies have intrinsic problems. David could not make a replica of the Bionors. For some strange reason those considered best sounding species are almost always unobtainium. I appreciated a lot your and other people reports on the Bionors, but I will not make a very long travel to listen to some speakers I can't consider, although I have made long distances to listen to particular concerts. For me, being an audiophile is an hobby, not a pilgrimage.

 

[Lee]

Resale is a function of: supply and demand. Demand has elements of brand awareness, recommendations from press, discussion on audio fora, discussion on YouTube, and dealer visibility. Product replacement cycles (ie. new model releases) play a part as well.

 

[Lee]

Lee, it is your "joyless people living in the past" comment. I find that comment to be condescending. You clearly don't. We can move on.

I don't think anyone is arguing that there are no new technologies. Digital is certainly advancing, but some old CD players still hold up, and some of us think that some sound better than some/most/all streaming. Speaker cabinets vibrate less with the new materials. Drivers are stiffer too. Cables are fancier and purer and claim lower noise. Technologies march forward, and there is progress. I think some people are simply questioning whether technology inevitably marching forward means that products inevitably sound better.

As we discussed on the phone, I do not think that is necessarily the case, and I gave you some specific examples. In addition to the turntable examples, I have never heard a modern subwoofer sound as natural and integrated as the vintage 18" JBL subs in ddk's system. I was impressed with Magico's Q series. It was well integrated but did not sound as natural in tone. Tima and I agreed that neither of us has every heard a cartridge sound as convincing, believable, or natural as ddk's Neumann cartridge. Tang is pretty impressed with his too. Of course I have not directly compared that one to all other modern cartridges, but still, that is a data point that makes me question progress in the industry. Every new thick reissue LP that I have directly compared to an original, has sounded worse, as long as the original was in good condition.

I am not knocking every new, nor I am not arguing that everything old is better than everything new, simply that I question your unqualified claim that new technology always leads to better sound. Some special vintage gear is pretty darn good, and in some cases, better than the new stuff I have heard. It is easy to make stuff sound different. The challenge is to make it sound better and closer to the real thing. This is where there is some differences of opinion.

Peter, you make some good points here. If I may paraphrase, you are saying there are some "vintage classics" that have especially held their value over time and in many aspects (perhaps all?) they are still reference grade. Maybe an example is the discussion we had about the Micro-Seiki table holding its sound quality value even over the newer TechDas models in your opinion.

I think that is a reasonable viewpoint...even if we are not in 100% agreement on the point.

 

[microstrip]

Are you seriously advocating only buying big name brands because you shoukd always have your eye on the next purchase and so should worry about resale??? (...)

Well, IMHO any audiophile should think about resale. Preferences change and changing equipment can be part of the hobby.

 

[morricab]

Our readers are informed and experienced enough to understand the great leaps in playback that digital gear has made since the ML player was released.

It might be fun to listen to JS Audio's WAMM serial #1 and then head over and hear the WAMMs in Jacob's house. That would illustrate some cool differences in sound over time. The JS Audio room at Axpona was excellent but fascinating as well because you could hear familiar family traits in the Wilson line when you then visited the excellent rooms of Quintessence.

I am not in agreement with you about the digital, Lee. Furthermore, I do not consider Wilson’s to be the end all of speakers. They have numerous flaws in their designs that are relatively easy to hear once you know what causes what.

 

[rbbert]

Who wants to resurrect the car enthusiast analogy for new vs. vintage? I am fairly sure the number of vintage auto enthusiasts is far greater than the number of vintage audio enthusiasts; it may even be a higher percentage of total car enthusiasts than in audio. While there is an argument for more enjoyment from a vintage car (exotic, muscle, etc) there can't be more than a handful that actually offer performance comparable to current cars, and even that is only if the actual comparison is carefully chosen.

 

[rbbert]

Maybe this is an example of the Poe effect, but I have to agree with PeterA, you sounding like your lecturing us

Nothing like the thread hijacking and lecturing we are treated to by the horns/SET/system videos crew...

 

[PeterA]

Resale is a function of: supply and demand. Demand has elements of brand awareness, recommendations from press, discussion on audio fora, discussion on YouTube, and dealer visibility. Product replacement cycles (ie. new model releases) play a part as well.

I could send everything I bought from David Karmeli and he will pay me back 100% of what I paid him. In fact, he told me this was an option if I didn’t like the system once it was set up in my house. He will simply sit on it and sell it for more money in the future. Unlike most gear, these items are appreciating assets.

 

[Lee]

I am not in agreement with you about the digital, Lee. Furthermore, I do not consider Wilson’s to be the end all of speakers. They have numerous flaws in their designs that are relatively easy to hear once you know what causes what.

I did not make any claims about Wilson being the “end all of speakers”. I took the WAMM example as it was a fresh example in my mind from Axpona and it represented an early flagship design of its day.

 

[Lee]

I could send everything I bought from David Karmeli and he will pay me back 100% of what I paid him. In fact, he told me this was an option if I didn’t like the system once it was set up in my house. He will simply sit on it and sell it for more money in the future. Unlike most gear, these items are appreciating assets.

Well that’s a good value proposition from your dealer.

Maybe a fun article for TAS would be for me to visit both David and you and hear two really good examples of vintage gear and just comment on what I am hearing. Maybe I don’t know what I am missing.

 

[Lee]

I am not in agreement with you about the digital, Lee. Furthermore, I do not consider Wilson’s to be the end all of speakers. They have numerous flaws in their designs that are relatively easy to hear once you know what causes what.

In your opinion, what examples of vintage digital sound better than a Vivaldi Apex or a Wadax or a MSB Select 2?

 

[ALF]

I could send everything I bought from David Karmeli and he will pay me back 100% of what I paid him. In fact, he told me this was an option if I didn’t like the system once it was set up in my house. He will simply sit on it and sell it for more money in the future. Unlike most gear, these items are appreciating assets.

I heard the same PA

vbw,
-a

 

[tima]

Steve, Ron, Tom, and Julian have created a special platform for the rest of us to create and share content. Despite some disagreements, I have learned a lot from the plethora of opinions here, and I have met some great people in the process. WBF contributes to the current state of the industry, and for that I am grateful.

Copy that.

I will add that there is a significant amount of technical infrastructure behind WBF that allows it to provide its services 24/7 around the globe to multiple concurrent users. While it may be self supporting, the owner's commitment to investment sufficient to do it right is what allows us to interact every day in a quality way.