State of the industry - Roy Gregory Editorial

[rbbert]

Analogy doesn’t hold up under scrutiny because what constitutes performance is clearly and measurably defined in cars and not so in audio...that is why 1930s theater speakers can sound at least as real as a modern megabuck speaker...

You missed the point, one of the many problems associated with online only “communication”, already a sub-topic in this thread.

 

[bonzo75]

I find your comment pretty condescending actually. Your publications might be well served by covering a greater variety of pathways to the sound of unamplified instruments in real space.

Totally agree. His biggest contribution here is to advise us to listen to latest models of Wilson, Magico, and dCS to appreciate progress. Makes me ROFL with his inability to relate to any of the vintage goods, except use vintage as a generic term for old and decrepit. He didn't like the 2019 Munich WE room which is quite a litmus test imo. Quite embarrassing for someone who pretends to know the hifi industry. For those who wonder why audio forums get heated, it is because those with a lack of exposure use condescending tones by quoting sky high retail prices. He should listen to the 174,500 dollar horn.

 

[Al M.]

I'm not sure what "bests" is supposed to mean in this context?

Answer:
Nostalgia.

 

[Al M.]

He didn't like the 2019 Munich WE room which is quite a litmus test imo. Quite embarrassing for someone who pretends to know the hifi industry.

Didn't pass the litmus test, huh? So anyone who doesn't share your perceptions, taste and preferences is incompetent and "wrong"? Yeah, we already knew that's what you're thinking, Ked.

 

[bonzo75]

Didn't pass the litmus test, huh? So anyone who doesn't share your perceptions, taste and preferences is incompetent and "wrong"? Yeah, we already knew that's what you're thinking, Ked.

Anyone who didn't like the WE Munich 2019 room is a poor listener.

 

[Ron Resnick]

He didn't like the 2019 Munich WE room which is quite a litmus test imo.

I think it's arrogant to convert your subjective preference about one single system into an objective litmus test for deciding whether people know anything about high-end audio.

 

[bonzo75]

I think it's arrogant to convert your subjective preference about one single system into an objective litmus test for deciding whether people know anything about high-end audio.

No it's Lee's tone that was arrogant. And worse is he is arrogant and wrong. I am arrogant and right.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Yes

yes, but they are the “enlightened ones“, sent out like apostles to spread the “ good news” that natural sound is amongst us, cast out your cone driver devils, and go forth and multiply your horns with the holy SET spirit , and the analog trinity

Here at the hornclub in brussels they hold a cone burning initiation ceremony each year .
You can only hope you had aluminium magico s or YG s before hand because everything else goes to shreds.

 

[rbbert]

I think it's arrogant to convert your subjective preference about one single system into an objective litmus test for deciding whether people know anything about high-end audio.

I think the best solution is to put him on "ignore"

 

[morricab]

You missed the point, one of the many problems associated with online only “communication”, already a sub-topic in this thread.

No I didn’t it’s just an inappropriate analogy

 

[Ron Resnick]

Who wants to resurrect the car enthusiast analogy for new vs. vintage? I am fairly sure the number of vintage auto enthusiasts is far greater than the number of vintage audio enthusiasts; it may even be a higher percentage of total car enthusiasts than in audio. While there is an argument for more enjoyment from a vintage car (exotic, muscle, etc) there can't be more than a handful that actually offer performance comparable to current cars, and even that is only if the actual comparison is carefully chosen.

I think this analogy is deceptively complicated as applied to high-end audio. People enjoy vintage sports cars for characteristics and experiences and "feel" conscientiously different than the characteristics and experiences and "feel" of new sports cars. The objective of a vintage sports car is different than the objective of a new sports car.

Most people who enjoy vintage audio systems are not seeking conscientiously a different objective than the people who prefer new audio systems. Both of these groups are trying to solve the same equation -- whichever of the objectives of high-end audio they happen to be pursuing.

If both of these groups are trying to achieve the high-end audio objective of, for example, "create a sound that seems live," then both the vintage audio group and the new audio group are targeting the same objective. People enjoying vintage sports cars probably are targeting a different objective -- different characteristics and experiences and "feel" -- than are people enjoying new sports cars.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Here at the hornclub in brussels they hold a cone burning initiation ceremony each year .
You can only hope you had aluminium magico s or YG s before hand because everything else goes to shreds.

They do a lot more than that at the Hornclub, I've reliably been informed.

 

[PeterA]

Ron, I know a guy who tinkers with vintage cars from prewar Singers from the 30s to track cars from the 60s. He also collects nice touring cars and classics like Jag XKE‘s. He owns a 15-year-old Porsche too.

Interestingly, after hearing my system he’s planning to visit David Karmeli and has already bought a Micro Seiki turntable like mine. With audio, for him it is all about performance. With his car collection, it’s about a whole bunch of stuff: performance, aesthetics, heritage and collectibility and intangibles like how cool is it and I have to own it. I suspect there is some of that in the vintage audio world, but I don’t really know. I suspect value and pricing versus performance at the time factors in as well as increasing versus decreasing value over time.

 

[Lee]

Well i ll report back on the state of the industry after i ve come back from the MOC in Munchen.
I was a frequent show go er from 2004 till 2010 after that i lost interest .
Shows means mostly mediocre sound with an enourmous emphesize on shiny big cables and monstrous " power condtioners " hardly a thing of music lovers interest .
While the positive stand outs were always the Peter mc grath demos with wilson for me .
What mostly ruins show performance is lousy set ups i suppose , but it is possible

I ll go to this show ( take some time off ) to give it another chance but it could well be my last one.
I d rather go on a nice holiday.
Some dealer shows is another story , some know how to put a good musical system together

I have heard several 200 -400 K set ups with topnotch DCS .
Apart from the impressive price and and large stack of boxes , i prefer they would have put in a far more rhythmic player like an ML 390 S .
And whether the new digital has more resolution is highly debatable .
As I do agree speaker resolution has somewhat improved ( got more refined ) over the years .
But what is resolution without rhythm / musicality , not much .
Probably most of the " better latest digital sound " people talk about is due to a bit more refined speakers overall these days which lets you hear proper digital resolution / capabilities in the first place .
Personally one of the best digital i ve heard is from Zanden audio.

@ Lee what id urge your reviewers to do is swap the names you mentioned for an ML 30.6 or the Zanden stack Zanden came out with years ago , see if they still hold their story .
I know it doesnt make any business sense so they ll never do it , and even if they did it we ll probably never hear about it.

We have reviewed several Zanden components. ML 390S does not do PRAT any better than current dCS gear. That was pretty evident in the Alexx V room at Axpona. The sound was alive and dynamic with the Vivaldi Apex.

 

[Lee]

My personal opinion is there are far more audio cheapskates than other hobbies. People value the deal more than the sound, which usually ends compromised.

I think there is a lot of truth in this statement. Well said.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Ron, I know a guy who tinkers with vintage cars from prewar singers from the 30s to track cars from the 60s. He also collects Nice touring cars and classics like Jag XKE‘s. He owns a 15-year-old Porsche too.

interestingly, after hearing my system he’s playing to visit David Karmeli and has already bought a Micro Seiki turntable like mine. With audio, for him it is all about performance. With his car collection, it’s about a whole bunch of stuff: performance, aesthetics, heritage and collectibility and intangibles like how cool is it and I have to own it. I suspect there is some of that in the vintage audio world, but I don’t really know. I suspect value and pricing versus performance is a factor as well.

I think you are citing this friend in support of the idea that people who like vintage cars are enjoying different characteristics, experiences and "feel" than are people who like new cars?

I see the point I made above very clearly with myself. Whether I am listening to a vintage audio system or to a new audio system I am targeting the same high-end audio objective.

But I enjoy my vintage sports car for very different characteristics, experiences and "feel" than for which I enjoy our new sports car.

 

[Lee]

Totally agree. His biggest contribution here is to advise us to listen to latest models of Wilson, Magico, and dCS to appreciate progress. Makes me ROFL with his inability to relate to any of the vintage goods, except use vintage as a generic term for old and decrepit. He didn't like the 2019 Munich WE room which is quite a litmus test imo. Quite embarrassing for someone who pretends to know the hifi industry. For those who wonder why audio forums get heated, it is because those with a lack of exposure use condescending tones by quoting sky high retail prices. He should listen to the 174,500 dollar horn.

You are making many assumptions here. I have heard many horn speakers over the years. My recording buddy had Klipsch LaScalas which sounded fantastic on classical. I heard the Aries Cerat room at Axpona and loved the sound. I am writing an Axpona article on best systems at Axpona and one of them was the Avantgarde G3 room.

I’m not big on litmus tests and I have to call the WE room as I heard it.

As for sky high prices, this is a forum on the better gear and some of the best speakers do enter six figure territory. There are a lot of high value speakers below $100K and I have owned several of them. Our magazines cover affordable audio quite well.

 

[bonzo75]

You are making many assumptions here. I have heard many horn speakers over the years. My recording buddy had Klipsch LaScalas which sounded fantastic on classical. I heard the Aries Cerat room at Axpona and loved the sound. I am writing an Axpona article on best systems at Axpona and one of them was the Avantgarde G3 room.

I’m not big on litmus tests and I have to call the WE room as I heard it.

As for sky high prices, this is a forum on the better gear and some of the best speakers do enter six figure territory. There are a lot of high value speakers below $100K and I have owned several of them. Our magazines cover affordable audio quite well.

Please don't mix all horns as well as all vintage in one bucket. Just like with modern there are many layers. There will be a lot of difference in the la Scala, the trio with bass horns, the unos or duos, and the AC Symphonia and the Contendo. Plus that Aurora is an omni speaker, just because it is from AC does not make it in any way similar to a regular horn

Just like you wouldn't classify all analog under one bucket or all cones under one bucket.

 

[bonzo75]

I think you are citing this friend in support of the idea that people who like vintage cars are enjoying different characteristics, experiences and "feel" than are people who like new cars?

I see the point I made above very clearly with myself. Whether I am listening to a vintage audio system or to a new audio system I am targeting the same high-end audio objective.

But I enjoy my vintage sports car for very different characteristics, experiences and "feel" than for which I enjoy our new sports car.

Cars have a massive external factor. They can be bought for cool looks, feel of drive, car to take family around, for work related drives, transport of goods, etc. The guy who buys knows exactly what he is buying for. You won't have someone buying a Ford Ka for a sporty car. Nor will you have someone buying a Ferrari to transport family or large speakers around.

In audio there is a disconnect between what people buy for and what they claim to be buying for.

The car market is also very efficient compared in terms of the demand supply curve and the buyer knowledge.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Cars have a massive external factor. They can be bought for cool looks, feel of drive, car to take family around, for work related drives, transport of goods, etc. The guy who buys knows exactly what he is buying for. You won't have someone buying a Ford Ka for a sporty car. Nor will you have someone buying a Ferrari to transport family or large speakers around.

In audio there is a disconnect between what people buy for and what they claim to be buying for.

The car market is also very efficient compared in terms of the demand supply curve and the buyer knowledge.

I agree.

You think they are buying for a different reason than what they claim to be buying for (showing off as status symbols well-known, highly-marketed, expensive and favorably-reviewed big name components).

They think they are buying for the same reason they claim to be buying (they like the way the system makes their favorite music sound).