New SME Flagship Model 60

[bazelio]

If the background is too black I hear less ambient information and sense of liveness that is on the recording. I think of this quality as distinct from low noise. The former can hide information, the latter can expose it. I find that I hear something similar in terms of blackness and void from other products that accentuate contrast by not revealing very low level information.

It's probably as simple as detail retrieval or lack thereof. I think it tends to correlate well with what you called damping. That is, one of the hallmarks of a high resolution system (or not) is the ability to reproduce decays. If it does that well, then I expect it to dig deep and reproduce nuance and ambience rather well also.

 

[bazelio]

No experience with the hard to listen turntables, I will just address the Garrard 401 and EMT927 versus the SME or the TechDas . IMHO the more recent designs show less vinyl coloration and more of the music without enhancing details or transients. Bass is better damped without the artificial resonance added that seems to add spaciousness in some recordings.
The old designs are very agreeable sounding, but less true and musical with excellent quality recordings, such as many DG's or some digital recordings.

The old turntables often create the effect of extreme love or extreme hate with recordings. The more recent designs enlarge the recordings you find great sounding.

BTW, I also consider highly the modern Caliburn Turntable of Continuum Audio Labs and the Monaco Grand Prix 2.0, that I have listened many times, but in other people systems.

I think the EMT 927 wow/flutter typically measures at around 0.3%. I think this table does have a pleasing sound, but in no way can this be considered accurate playback.

 

[bazelio]

.

We could discuss that the TechDAS and SME were designed during the digital era and that one stated goal of the TechDAS AF1 design was to achieve the silence of digital playback, but that might be straying off topic a bit.

Yes, off topic and irrelevant since silent playback does not in any way mean a lack of ambience and other low level detail.

 

[bazelio]

Francisco, you asked for a reference for the designers goals for the AF1 table. One goal is to create the silence of digital playback. I provided you with that reference. I think he achieved his goal because I do indeed hear a silence in the way that table sounds.

What do you think is meant by the phrase “reproducing the recorded information of the background noise“? I find the phrase very confusing. We want the turntable to retrieve recorded information, and we want it to silence noise. I read the design goal as meaning he wants a sound that is more digital like in terms of silence. I think he achieved that, but these rare turntables that you have not heard retrieve more ambient information embedded in the recording than what I heard from both the AF1 and SME.

I don't find the phrase the least bit confusing. It's self-explanatory to me. I am confused about one thing though. Do you think that digital reproduction fails to capture ambience and low level detail in general? Or what exactly is the problem with "the silence of digital playback?"

 

[bonzo75]

I think the EMT 927 wow/flutter typically measures at around 0.3%. I think this table does have a pleasing sound, but in no way can this be considered accurate playback.

I heard 4 EMT 927s and only liked Tang's. Pleasing is often a term used for color tinted valves here so that way it is not pleasing. What Tang's EMT did was it had the best PRAT I heard. Just awesome timing. It made you break into an Elvis, really had the groove, extremely lively. It is big sounding but so is Garrard, and just being big sounding is not the thing, it's rhythm and timing is great. It's main drawback was lack of nuance for classical, in inner note inflections as well as in separation of instruments. Tang later tried many experiments including using vdh to increase nuance but by reports don't think he succeeded. For certain music it was awesome and if I had an expensive TT harem, it will be first choice for a second table, i.e. one that is dedicated as first choice to play certain music, but cannot play all music so can't be a choice if one owns only one TT.

In vintage idlers the Silbatone WE room in Munich, where Schick and Schroeder themselves man the analog, have also played modded Commnwealth and dual platter lencos which have been the best analog in Munich (without benefit of isolation, though they have a tape deck and till 2018 a dCS there to compare to). In fact if I had the dough I would have offered them the money in 2019 for the dual platter lenco with vdh strad to take back after the show. Picture is at the bottom of the linked page http://zero-distortion.org/munich-2019/

 

[Solypsa]

In fact if I had the dough I would have offered them the money in 2019 for the dual platter lenco with vdh strad to take back after the show. Picture is at the bottom of the linked page http://zero-distortion.org/munich-2019/

Don't know what the ask was for that setup but I imagine it was cheap by general 'best in show' standards

 

[bonzo75]

Don't know what the ask was for that setup but I imagine it was cheap by general 'best in show' standards

These are one offs that they make for the show so anything offered that he feels happy with that day

 

[PeterA]

I don't find the phrase the least bit confusing. It's self-explanatory to me. I am confused about one thing though. Do you think that digital reproduction fails to capture ambience and low level detail in general? Or what exactly is the problem with "the silence of digital playback?"

Brian, there is no problem with “the silence of digital playback “. I’m not going to discuss my thoughts about digital playback reproducing the ambience on recordings on this thread which is about a flagship turntable. I only mentioned it because it is a stated goal of the designer of a well-known turntable

I think the more interesting discussion in a turntable thread is about resonances. We have a theory
here that those resonances enhance a sense of “air” and other aspects that contribute to a livelier sound. Alternatively, dampening those resonances may come at the expense of some of the nuance and ambiance on the recording.

This thread is about the new flagship SME turntable. I used to own the former flagship, the Model 30/12. The suspension towers and dampening material under the chassis and on the platter contribute to a type of silence and give the table a particular type of sound, which is distinct and quite different from my current turntable which does not have suspension or the dampening material.

I happen to think that those are the main characteristics of the sound of the SME turntable. I’m curious to hear how different the new turntable sounds from what I used to own, including the contribution of the new tonearm.

 

[Bergm@nn]

Brian, there is no problem with “the silence of digital playback “. I’m not going to discuss my thoughts about digital playback reproducing the ambience on recordings on this thread which is about a flagship turntable. I only mentioned it because it is a stated goal of the designer of a well-known turntable

I think the more interesting discussion in a turntable thread is about resonances. We have a theory
here that those resonances enhance a sense of “air” and other aspects that contribute to a livelier sound. Alternatively, dampening those resonances may come at the expense of some of the nuance and ambiance on the recording.

This thread is about the new flagship SME turntable. I used to own the former flagship, the Model 30/12. The suspension towers and dampening material under the chassis and on the platter contribute to a type of silence and give the table a particular type of sound, which is distinct and quite different from my current turntable which does not have suspension or the dampening material.

I happen to think that those are the main characteristics of the sound of the SME turntable. I’m curious to hear how different the new turntable sounds from what I used to own, including the contribution of the new tonearm.

I kinda get where you’re coming from. The sound of SME turntables is quite distinct and easily identified in a blind line up.

Some people really go for that kind of thing and will be willing to pay very highly premiums for those qualities.

It’s not for me though, and a few others I imagine who like something that is a bit more ‘alive’. Whether or not that it less accurate I’m not too bothered really, I buy to please my own ears.

YMMV and all other caveats apply.

 

[microstrip]

(...) This thread is about the new flagship SME turntable. I used to own the former flagship, the Model 30/12. The suspension towers and dampening material under the chassis and on the platter contribute to a type of silence and give the table a particular type of sound, which is distinct and quite different from my current turntable which does not have suspension or the dampening material.

I happen to think that those are the main characteristics of the sound of the SME turntable.(...)

Peter,

Your analysis of the SME30 features is almost childish and IMHO misrepresents the excellence of its design. The "sound" of the SME is due to the careful balance of many characteristics, not to the dampening material and suspension.

Just to illustrate, the SME20 also has the features you refer, but has a very different type of sound. At the time it was presented, some reviews even suggested that the more "livelier" sound of the cheaper turntable could be preferred by some listeners. Before you ask, I prefer the SME30 by a extremely wide margin.

Please consider the AS2000. Using the extensive available information in WBF someone could copy it and built a similar turntable using the same materials. I am sure that it would not have the praised sound characteristics of the David product.

 

[PeterA]

Peter,

Your analysis of the SME30 features is almost childish and IMHO misrepresents the excellence of its design. The "sound" of the SME is due to the careful balance of many characteristics, not to the dampening material and suspension.

Just to illustrate, the SME20 also has the features you refer, but has a very different type of sound. At the time it was presented, some reviews even suggested that the more "livelier" sound of the cheaper turntable could be preferred by some listeners. Before you ask, I prefer the SME30 by a extremely wide margin.

Please consider the AS2000. Using the extensive available information in WBF someone could copy it and built a similar turntable using the same materials. I am sure that it would not have the praised sound characteristics of the David product.

Fransisco, I wrote that the dampening material and suspension contribute to a type of silence and give the table a particular type of sound. I notice it as a dampening. This is very effective. It looks as if SME retained these features in the new flagship model. However, it is surely only one contributing factor to the overall sound. There are others like drive type, motor type, materials, mass and dimensions, and execution which all contribute to the overall sound. It is a balance as you say and the combination of carefully considered decisions. I agree with that. And I agree that the different SME tables that I have heard and owned all sounded different but they had similarities and a type of sound. I remember reading much about the sonic differences between the Model 20/12 and the Model 30. Longer arm on an extended chassis versus the denser more compact, more massive chassis with the shorter arm. Pros and cons and a slightly different presentation, as I recall reading. I heard the 20/12 at a show. I don't know if the sonic differences described were as much about the arms or just the tables. I actually did extensive comparisons between the V9 and V12 arms on my Model 30/12. Very different sound between the two arms, but also obvious similarities. All I am saying is that SME tables have a sound just like other brands have a sound because there is a consistent design philosophy behind them and extremely good execution of that philosophy.

 

[bazelio]

Please consider the AS2000. Using the extensive available information in WBF someone could copy it and built a similar turntable using the same materials. I am sure that it would not have the praised sound characteristics of the David product.

They'd have a difficult time sourcing the motor. And actually, I think the most interesting part of the new SME is its new AC motor. Do.we know if this motor is SME-designed?

 

[bazelio]

I heard 4 EMT 927s and only liked Tang's. Pleasing is often a term used for color tinted valves here so that way it is not pleasing. What Tang's EMT did was it had the best PRAT I heard. Just awesome timing. It made you break into an Elvis, really had the groove, extremely lively. It is big sounding but so is Garrard, and just being big sounding is not the thing, it's rhythm and timing is great. It's main drawback was lack of nuance for classical, in inner note inflections as well as in separation of instruments. Tang later tried many experiments including using vdh to increase nuance but by reports don't think he succeeded. For certain music it was awesome and if I had an expensive TT harem, it will be first choice for a second table, i.e. one that is dedicated as first choice to play certain music, but cannot play all music so can't be a choice if one owns only one TT.

In vintage idlers the Silbatone WE room in Munich, where Schick and Schroeder themselves man the analog, have also played modded Commnwealth and dual platter lencos which have been the best analog in Munich (without benefit of isolation, though they have a tape deck and till 2018 a dCS there to compare to). In fact if I had the dough I would have offered them the money in 2019 for the dual platter lenco with vdh strad to take back after the show. Picture is at the bottom of the linked page http://zero-distortion.org/munich-2019/

Outside of Saskia (and I'm just presuming), do any of the idlers do nuance and micro detail well? Don't hear much about Lenco around here, or really anywhere outside of Lenco Heaven.

The 927 definitely has that pleasing sense of pace. Also image density would be one of its characteristics, no?

 

[bonzo75]

Outside of Saskia (and I'm just presuming), do any of the idlers do nuance and micro detail well? Don't hear much about Lenco around here, or really anywhere outside of Lenco Heaven.

The 927 definitely has that pleasing sense of pace. Also image density would be one of its characteristics, no?

The pace and timing are a strength, to put the word pleasing next to it makes it seem like a weakness.

TD124 and Garrard are very musical but don't have the nuance to the level of good modern belts. They are well balanced with the level of resolution that medium level systems offer.

However like I said before, I would rather move from less res to more res on the natural axis, than on the non natural axis. So I would rather have TD124 and tannoy rather than SME 30 (actually a friend of mine with tannoy did make that choice he sold off his SME 30/2 and kept his 124 and Garrard, because he realized when he had the SME he was listening to digital (esoteric) more, but on shifting to the idlers he would listen to the analog more).

 

[bazelio]

This is why my friend who had multiple SME tables didn't pair them with SME arms, but usually Graham Phantom or Triplanar. I didn't like these combos much.

I despise the TD124, but the Garrards are fun. Just not as a primary table.

Pleasing is fine. Pleasant on the other hand is a kiss of death. The TD124 is pleasant.

 

[bonzo75]

Outside of Saskia (and I'm just presuming), do any of the idlers do nuance and micro detail well? Don't hear much about Lenco around here, or really anywhere outside of Lenco Heaven.

The 927 definitely has that pleasing sense of pace. Also image density would be one of its characteristics, no?

The Schroeder idler with LT has lots of nuance. I will compare it to a Studer A80 on one of my trips.

Win did use the Schroeder arm on his Saskia

 

[Tango]

The Schroeder idler with LT has lots of nuance. I will compare it to a Studer A80 on one of my trips.

Win did use the Schroeder arm on his Saskia

View attachment 94174

The crazy french has the nicest listening room I have ever seen.

 

[mtemur]

The crazy french has the nicest listening room I have ever seen.

… and kaguras besides sfz as far as I can see from the picture.

 

[mtemur]

I wrote that the dampening material and suspension contribute to a type of silence and give the table a particular type of sound. I notice it as a dampening. This is very effective. It looks as if SME retained these features in the new flagship model. However, it is surely only one contributing factor to the overall sound.

in terms of dampening and sound signature SME 30 and AF3P are more different than alike. yes AF3P or techdas turntables in general have a robust strong base and kind of damped sound but SME 30/12 is the opposite in that regard. whatever you hear damped, eating nuances etc about SME 30 is purely associated with SME V tonearm’s horrible VDH inner cable. VDH cable’s roll off character in both frequency extremes, blunt and cardboard sound is the culprit. additionally if you’re using 502 tonearm cable that effect gets worse.
I setup and listened to SME 30/12 and AF3P at the same setup with same arm and same cartridge hundreds of hours. I also listened different AF and SME 30/12 turntables in different setups too many times and my conclusion is that they are not alike.
SME 30/12 has a lively, robust character and a great turntable
AF turntables has more base, quieter and robust sounding. maybe that character is what you called “damped” but AF3P is simply a better turntable.
being robust and quiet are the things should be looked for when picking a turntable. on the other hand best tonearms and cartridges are most dynamic ones and they usually have a lively character.
providing a quiet, solid background is the job of turntable and pointing out nuances is the cartridge’s job. tonearm should hold the cartridge in place so it can read all the details in the groove but nothing more. tonearm shouldn’t sail with cartridge while reading heavy oscillated grooves. that’s how it should be IMHO.

 

[PeterA]

in terms of dampening and sound signature SME 30 and AF3P are more different than alike. yes AF3P or techdas turntables in general have a robust strong base and kind of damped sound but SME 30/12 is the opposite in that regard. whatever you hear damped, eating nuances etc about SME 30 is purely associated with SME V tonearm’s horrible VDH inner cable. VDH cable’s roll of character in both frequency extremes, blunt and cardboard sound is the culprit. additionally if you’re using 502 tonearm cable that effect gets worse.
I setup and listened to SME 30/12 and AF3P at the same setup with same arm and same cartridge hundreds of hours. I also listened different AF and SME 30/12 turntables in different setups too many times and my conclusion is that they are not alike.
SME 30/12 has a lively, robust character and a great turntable
AF turntables has more base, quieter and robust sounding. maybe that character is what you called “damped” but AF3P is simply a better turntable.
being robust and quiet are the things should be looked for when picking a turntable. on the other hand best tonearms and cartridges are most dynamic ones and they usually have a lively character. that’s how it should be IMHO.

I would not be at all surprise that the SME30 and AF3P are more different than alike. My comments are about the Air Force 1 that I directly compared to the American Sound AS2000. I have never heard, and did not comment on, the AF3P. It appears to be a very different design from the AF1.