New SME Flagship Model 60

[spiritofmusic]

Mark, I’m quite surprised to see that you are sad. I don’t recall you having any love for the model 20, and thus not having any interest in the model 30. You were quite relentless in sharing your opinion whenever given the chance. Why the sudden change of heart?

I've heard the 20 and 30 in a couple of places in last few years, incl a (previous) well established audio reviewer, and they spoke a lot more to me. Hard not to be convinced by a potentially near SOTA package for a price a mere fraction of those purporting to be such.
I guess if Santa gets me one for being a good boy and I hate it, maybe Santa can get me something else next year...that's our hobby, isn't it?

 

[mtemur]

1. The vast majority of LPs are pressed off center. Take a look at your record as it plays on your turntable. This wobble induces a pitch variability that dwarfs any other wow flutter measurement. Yet, aside from Nakamichi, with their self centering drive, no one was brave enough to address this problem.

Actually someone did. Check https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/ds-audio-es-001-eccentricity-detection-stabilizer.34923/

I could go on (e.g., linear tracking so we can dispense with the silly Berwald alignment gauges), but hopefully I’ve made my point. I’ve no interest in upgrading any of my current turntables for the SME 60 or 75, until they show me something new and innovative. I fear we have to wait until someone like Elon Musk shows up to shake the vinyl world a bit!

All the problems of vinyl playback that you mentioned or forget to mention are already addressed and it’s done in 1983. it’s called CD. Of course if you like the sound.

 

[microstrip]

Have you heard some of the SOTA turntables of years past, the original American Sound, or new AS2000?

I listened to the EMT 927 and Garrard 401, the other two are not exactly turntables that we can listen around the corner. I prefer the TechDas and the SME30.

Sometimes, the old technologies of the past are extremely hard to surpass in terms of sound quality. Sure record eccentricity is an issue, but how audible is it? The solution there lies ideally in the pressing technology, not in the turntable where solutions can cause other issues.

As they saw, we have got used to it. But yes, we can always select pressings.

Vacuum hold down is great, but it complicates things. The right weight and platter surface shape can solve that issue as well as or better than vacuum hold down.

The effects of vacuum are different from the effects of a clamp or weight. I use both in the TechDas AF1P - vacuum and an heavy tungsten weight. IMHO it is question of preference, although vacuum shows clear improvement is measurements.

Linear tracking arms have advantages in theory, but implementation and sonic trade offs prevent them from being the standard.

IMHO it is a question of price. If my main source was vinyl I would surely try the Derenville in the TechDas, as well as the DS Audio optical cartridges - I feel that they are much closer to the cutting head than the classical solutions.

What amazes me is that turntables arguably reached their peak in the '70-80s, or darn close.

People owning the many current top turntables do not feel the same.

The very best of them are not what is holding back the sound of today's top systems.

Yes, a few people still prefer them.

Thirty years into the revolutionary technology of digital, some lunatic audiophiles still prefer the sound of a rock being dragged through plastic. Elon Musk has much bigger problems to solve.

There are reasons for such preference. IMHO they are not lunatic audiophiles, they are common audiophiles like many others, although a few love to be considered as such ...

 

[PeterA]

I listened to the EMT 927 and Garrard 401, the other two are not exactly turntables that we can listen around the corner. I prefer the TechDas and the SME30.

Yes, this is understandable based on your stated preferences and feelings. Your TechDAS AF1 and the SME have a similar type of sound and distinct from the MS SX 8000 II and American Sound. I have not heard the EMT or Garrards.

The effects of vacuum are different from the effects of a clamp or weight. I use both in the TechDas AF1P - vacuum and an heavy tungsten weight. IMHO it is question of preference, although vacuum shows clear improvement is measurements.

Could you explain these effects in sonic terms, what is being measured and how the measurements differ between the two?

There are reasons for such preference. IMHO they are not lunatic audiophiles, they are common audiophiles like many others, although a few love to be considered as such ...

I was teasing, but your response is quite funny.

 

[bazelio]

TechDAS AF1 and the SME have a similar type of sound and distinct from the MS SX 8000 II and American Sound. .

Could you compare and contrast these two groups of TTs in sonic terms (without using the word 'natural' preferably)? Thank you.

 

[Tango]

Could you compare and contrast these two groups of TTs in sonic terms (without using the word 'natural' preferably)? Thank you.

You will hear more sound pattern with the Techdas. For example it gives you the width of sound stage. This width would appear in recording that comes with great width but it will also give a pretty good width on the recording that does not offer that great width. The contrast is less between the two. Dynamic and bass too. All recordings seem to have good dynamic all the time, less contrast. The American Sound you hear more sonic contrast, variation, differences between records...also different variation between instrument in that music. It is not giving dynamic all the time. It is extremely dynamic when the recording and music has it. You just hear more contrast and differences between a recording that has it and another that does not. I mentioned only a few things that AS stands different. This is just not a thread for it. With tt, I think it takes more listening time and skill in listening to capture the essence of each tt. And you just have to have them in your system to hear. And if your system is so color without realizing you still wont be able to detect difference effectively.

 

[bonzo75]

Linear tracking arms have advantages in theory, but implementation and sonic trade offs prevent them from being the standard.

Which LT arms did you hear and with which cartridges?

 

[PeterA]

Which LT arms did you hear and with which cartridges?

Walker with Airtight cartridge and Clearaudio with their own cartridge.

 

[PeterA]

Could you compare and contrast these two groups of TTs in sonic terms (without using the word 'natural' preferably)? Thank you.

The TechDAS and SME are more damped sounding. They capture the broad strokes and are very quiet but you do not hear the subtleties and nuances in the recordings. Backgrounds are blacker, images stand out in relief and it is an exciting sound, but there is a sameness.

The American sound and the big Micro Seiki are more solid, nuanced, relaxed and have a more articulate bass. There is an ease to the presentation that seems more grounded. I simply hear more information and greater variety between recordings, less sameness. There is more life and emotion. I simply hear more information from these turntables.

Without using the word natural, the sound from the more massive unsuspended turntables reminds me more of the real thing. There is a rightness to it and a believability.

 

[audioblazer]

You will hear more sound pattern with the Techdas. For example it gives you the width of sound stage. This width would appear in recording that comes with great width but it will also give a pretty good width on the recording that does not offer that great width. The contrast is less between the two. Dynamic and bass too. All recordings seem to have good dynamic all the time, less contrast. The American Sound you hear more sonic contrast, variation, differences between records...also different variation between instrument in that music. It is not giving dynamic all the time. It is extremely dynamic when the recording and music has it. You just hear more contrast and differences between a recording that has it and another that does not. I mentioned only a few things that AS stands different. This is just not a thread for it. With tt, I think it takes more listening time and skill in listening to capture the essence of each tt. And you just have to have them in your system to hear. And if your system is so color without realizing you still wont be able to detect difference effectively.

How would EMT 927 compare to AS & Techdas

 

[bazelio]

The TechDAS and SME are more damped sounding. They capture the broad strokes and are very quiet but you do not hear the subtleties and nuances in the recordings. Backgrounds are blacker, images stand out in relief and it is an exciting sound, but there is a sameness.

The American sound and the big Micro Seiki are more solid, nuanced, relaxed and have a more articulate bass. There is an ease to the presentation that seems more grounded. I simply hear more information and greater variety between recordings, less sameness. There is more life and emotion. I simply hear more information from these turntables.

Without using the word natural, the sound from the more massive unsuspended turntables reminds me more of the real thing. There is a rightness to it and a believability.

So, I take it that you're referring to the lack of black background as a good thing. I.e. not that you're getting motor rumble with the MS, but that you're getting more plankton retrieval.

 

[PeterA]

So, I take it that you're referring to the lack of black background as a good thing. I.e. not that you're getting motor rumble with the MS, but that you're getting more plankton retrieval.

If the background is too black I hear less ambient information and sense of liveness that is on the recording. I think of this quality as distinct from low noise. The former can hide information, the latter can expose it. I find that I hear something similar in terms of blackness and void from other products that accentuate contrast by not revealing very low level information. There is an energy in the air and space between notes that some gear covers up or obscures or does not retrieve. These massive belt drive tables seem to extract that sense of atmosphere embedded in some recordings bringing the presentation to life which is why I commented earlier that they are not the link in the system chain that is holding back a system potential. They reveal the system potential.

We could discuss that the TechDAS and SME were designed during the digital era and that one stated goal of the TechDAS AF1 design was to achieve the silence of digital playback, but that might be straying off topic a bit. It is worth noting that Fransisco clearly stated he preference for digital music and for the TechDAS and SME type of sound. These are two of the most revered and successful top tables of today, and as he noted, the others are very difficult to hear for comparison. I did directly compare the AS2000 to the AF1 in Rockitman's system and there was simply no comparison in terms of emotional engagement or natural sound. Years later I directly compared my Micro Seiki to my SME in my system with a similar impression resulting in the sale of my SME. These two direct comparisons form the basis of my comments.

 

[microstrip]

Could you compare and contrast these two groups of TTs in sonic terms (without using the word 'natural' preferably)? Thank you.

No experience with the hard to listen turntables, I will just address the Garrard 401 and EMT927 versus the SME or the TechDas . IMHO the more recent designs show less vinyl coloration and more of the music without enhancing details or transients. Bass is better damped without the artificial resonance added that seems to add spaciousness in some recordings.
The old designs are very agreeable sounding, but less true and musical with excellent quality recordings, such as many DG's or some digital recordings.

The old turntables often create the effect of extreme love or extreme hate with recordings. The more recent designs enlarge the recordings you find great sounding.

BTW, I also consider highly the modern Caliburn Turntable of Continuum Audio Labs and the Monaco Grand Prix 2.0, that I have listened many times, but in other people systems.

 

[microstrip]

If the background is too black I hear less ambient information and sense of liveness that is on the recording. I think of this quality as distinct from low noise. The former can hide information, the latter can expose it. I find that I hear something similar in terms of blackness and void from other products that accentuate contrast by not revealing very low level information. There is an energy in the air and space between notes that some gear covers up or obscures or does not retrieve. These massive belt drive tables seem to extract that sense of atmosphere embedded in some recordings bringing the presentation to life which is why I commented earlier that they are not the link in the system chain that is holding back a system potential. They reveal the system potential.

Peter,

As long as you use your own "natural " definition of black background, different from the one that is used by the better known turntable reviewers, such as H. Potter, M. Fremer or K, Kessler, we have little to discuss on such topic. I will simply consider you prefer vinyl resonance to enhance air in and details in recordings .

We could discuss that the TechDAS and SME were designed during the digital era and that one stated goal of the TechDAS AF1 design was to achieve the silence of digital playback, but that might be straying off topic a bit.

Considering that the SME30 was designed by Alastair Robertson-Aikman and the TechDas was designed by Hideaki Nishikawa and what they have said in several interviews about how they designed their turntables the insinuation is almost ridiculous. If you have read something in such direction please document it.

IMHO digital influenced audio designers because of its full dynamic range wide bandwith and bacause, although it was not perfect, it exposed the electromechanical artifacts associated with analog formats.

It is worth noting that Fransisco clearly stated he preference for digital music and for the TechDAS and SME type of sound. These are two of the most revered and successful top tables of today, and as he noted, the others are very difficult to hear for comparison. I did directly compare the AS2000 to the AF1 in Rockitman's system, and my SME to my Micro Seiki in my system to form the basis of my comments.

It is worth noting that you are not my official spokesman and that my reference for analog is tape played in the Studer A80 and my preference expressed in WBF is for digital played in some specific DACs in my system. I often say we can't separate our preferences from implementations, our individual experiences can not be generalized. And that there is not such thing as the TechDas /SME type of sound - just because today they sit in my system is not enough to define such association. There are many other excellent turntables that I have listened. I could go in your favorite area - speculation - and risk that you are addressing all other turntables versus your loved MicroSeiki SX8000 /AS2000.

 

[gleeds]

I agree. Given the escalating prices of SOA vinyl rigs, $50,000 with an arm for SME's flagship table seems like great value for money. I was also impressed when they packed a turntable with the Ortofon Winfield and Nagra phono stage for $25k. Many of us, myself included, love to tinker with arms, tables, cartridges, cables, step-up transformers, isolation bases, etc.

A well-engineered turn-key system IMHO has its advantages and can offer real value.
Both approaches are valid, and it appears a deliberate way SME has chosen to distinguish themselves in the market. The excellent news for vinylphiles is that intense competition has led to technical improvements and more quality offerings. As evidenced by the continuing number of new turntable and tonearm offerings, there is no doubt the vinyl market is alive and well!

 

[PeterA]

Considering that the SME30 was designed by Alastair Robertson-Aikman and the TechDas was designed by Hideaki Nishikawa and what they have said in several interviews about how they designed their turntables the insinuation is almost ridiculous. If you have read something in such direction please document it.

IMHO digital influenced audio designers because of its full dynamic range wide bandwith and bacause, although it was not perfect, it exposed the electromechanical artifacts associated with analog formats.

Francisco, I refer you to the second paragraph of this article in hi-fi news:

Techdas Air Force One (£75,000)

Irrespective of arm or cartridge used, the Air Force One is a peerless platform for vinyl It does not take a genius to see, even without hearing what one could do, that the Air Force One, with its air suspension, air bearing and vacuum LP hold-down, is something out of the ordinary. This...

www.hifinews.com

The comment about background and between track silence of digital is quite interesting. Background silence is precisely what I don’t want to hear from a recording that is full of ambient information describing the setting and context in which the musicians are playing their instruments. Silence between tracks is something different and a good quality almost achievable with the better vinyl front ends that I have heard.

 

[microstrip]

Francisco, I refer you to the second paragraph of this article in hi-fi news:

Techdas Air Force One (£75,000)

Irrespective of arm or cartridge used, the Air Force One is a peerless platform for vinyl It does not take a genius to see, even without hearing what one could do, that the Air Force One, with its air suspension, air bearing and vacuum LP hold-down, is something out of the ordinary. This...

www.hifinews.com

The comment about background and between track silence of digital is quite interesting. Background silence is precisely what I don’t want to hear from a recording that is full of ambient information describing the setting and context in which the musicians are playing their instruments. Silence between tracks is something different and a good quality almost achievable with the better vinyl front ends that I have heard.

Yes, Peter, please read it better :

‘The goal of Air Force One is to achieve silence in reproduction comparable to digital reproduction, especially in reproducing the recorded information of the background noise."

This is black background for most people, I have nothing to add.

 

[PeterA]

Yes, Peter, please read it better :

‘The goal of Air Force One is to achieve silence in reproduction comparable to digital reproduction, especially in reproducing the recorded information of the background noise."

This is black background for most people, I have nothing to add.

Francisco, you asked for a reference for the designers goals for the AF1 table. One goal is to create the silence of digital playback. I provided you with that reference. I think he achieved his goal because I do indeed hear a silence in the way that table sounds.

What do you think is meant by the phrase “reproducing the recorded information of the background noise“? I find the phrase very confusing. We want the turntable to retrieve recorded information, and we want it to silence noise. I read the design goal as meaning he wants a sound that is more digital like in terms of silence. I think he achieved that, but these rare turntables that you have not heard retrieve more ambient information embedded in the recording than what I heard from both the AF1 and SME.

 

[simonthepieman]

Where did you hear about the model 75?

It is in the text in the side bar when then mention the new owners

 

[simonthepieman]

It is very nice to see such a venerable company coming out with new designs. I wonder if they will reversed their decision not to sell tonearms separately.

I spoke to my SME dealer recently he said no, they only sell a package now TT and Arm combo,
like "surf & turf" but you can't get the lobster on its own lol (see trying to use an Americanism)