What are the Top Horn Speakers in the World Today? Vox Olympian vs Avantgarde Trio vs ???

[Bobbi]

Was that at Munich Bobbi ?

Not this year. 2019 they were on show.

 

[tima]

Then there is this from one of bonzo's favs:

When Evolution Becomes Revolution: Experiencing the Transformation of the Avantgarde Trio

 

[gleeds]

I spent last weekend in the loft at Prana Distribution. The room is massive, with high ceilings and hardwood floors covered by fine-looking, heavy rugs. It was a trip I have wanted to make since before Covid. I was lucky as Sam Wisnewski of Destination was there making updates. Among other things, I listened extensively to the Destination Audio Vista horns ($125k) powered by their new GM-70 powered integrated ($50k). The front end was a Destination tube DAC plugged into a modified mac Mini.

Moving the couch back three feet cured my feeling the image was unnaturally large. What was left were some of the most incredible sounds I have yet to experience. Dynamics were stunning in the way live music is—the sax and piano on all types of music from classical to jazz to rock sublime. I might add the book-matched veneers were terrific, and the detail and components contained in the external crossovers were exceptional.

If anybody has the chance to get to Gloucester, Mass, this summer to hear the Vista's, I highly recommend it. Bring your mate and stay at the Beauport Hotel on the water, a 10-minute walk to the Prana showroom.

Beauport Hotel Gloucester | Gloucester MA Hotels | On The Oceanfront

With a picturesque oceanfront location, upscale amenities & unforgettable hospitality, Beauport Hotel Gloucester is the perfect getaway in Gloucester, MA.

www.beauporthotel.com

 

[Argonaut]

Not this year. 2019 they were on show.

Yes , an exceptional performance.

 

[Fred Crane]

I spent last weekend in the loft at Prana Distribution. The room is massive, with high ceilings and hardwood floors covered by fine-looking, heavy rugs. It was a trip I have wanted to make since before Covid. I was lucky as Sam Wisnewski of Destination was there making updates. Among other things, I listened extensively to the Destination Audio Vista horns ($125k) powered by their new GM-70 powered integrated ($50k). The front end was a Destination tube DAC plugged into a modified mac Mini.

Moving the couch back three feet cured my feeling the image was unnaturally large. What was left were some of the most incredible sounds I have yet to experience. Dynamics were stunning in the way live music is—the sax and piano on all types of music from classical to jazz to rock sublime. I might add the book-matched veneers were terrific, and the detail and components contained in the external crossovers were exceptional.

If anybody has the chance to get to Gloucester, Mass, this summer to hear the Vista's, I highly recommend it. Bring your mate and stay at the Beauport Hotel on the water, a 10-minute walk to the Prana showroom.

Beauport Hotel Gloucester | Gloucester MA Hotels | On The Oceanfront

With a picturesque oceanfront location, upscale amenities & unforgettable hospitality, Beauport Hotel Gloucester is the perfect getaway in Gloucester, MA.

www.beauporthotel.com

View attachment 94755

Thanks Gary. It was great having you visit. Sam and I hope you and Deb can re-visit before the season comes to a close. There are a number of interesting items en route which will add excitement to your return. Of course, Cape Ann is a superb summer chill. We still have at least 40 rums to taste and the live music at the Shalin Liu will be in full effect from July to October. Just add field coils - hint : ) hint

 

[Willgolf]

I never hear anyone comment on AER. I heard the AER Pnoe and thought they were outstanding. Aer has a wide range of speakers and I especially like their drivers.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Those Vista horns look amazing!

 

[cjfrbw]

Some variation of the Destination Audio Vista horns were at the CAS driven by 45 tubes a few years ago. I loved them. Should be on the short list audition for horn fans. Clear, seamless, well integrated imaging for horns, and very easy to listen to.

 

[bonzo75]

I never hear anyone comment on AER. I heard the AER Pnoe and thought they were outstanding. Aer has a wide range of speakers and I especially like their drivers.

Loads has been written the AER Pnoe, maybe before you became active on the forum. The AER driver is probably the best driver, maybe Feastrex is great (which I havent't heard so I cannot say). I am not mentioning my favorite horns here because in some ways this is a pointless thread asking what are your favorite speakers, I have written about a lot of them. I was just responding to comments here on Trios and Tune Audio when they came up, but AER Pnoe is far superior

There is a very detailed thread on the AER on DIY audio by a Russian named Murat. He is one of the most methodical and sensible documenter I have come across on any forum, who went through a range of drivers from TAD, ALE, Goto, etc which he has detailed beautifully before landing on the AER highs with Goto bass. Another billionaire in Russia owned AER crossed over to Maxxonic woofers. I posted a lot of Murat's videos on the forum. He was well ahead of his time to document his research using accompanying videos.

Bill and I wrote about AER because we heard the General's system, which Ron later heard and wrote about it as the best system he had heard as well. I have heard the AER Pnoe in Genera'l's, in another place with some SETs, then obviously at Munich. At the General's It sounded better than almost all systems I have heard anywhere, while it sounded among the worst at Munich. Also, it was highly sensitive to any change anywhere in the chain. I later realized talking to those who have built speakers that this is due to being crossoverless - such speakers are like microscopes and very sensitive to changes. There are very few crossoverless speakers (I have heard the AER Pnoe, Loth MInistrel (stamm drivers), Yamamura). There were the Carfrae horns based on Lowther which might take the AER, and there is someone in NJ who makes some based on AER.

To me it indeed is the best commercial horn available and can be DIYed to the same, but it is a bit weird in terms of the fact that it is going to sound sh*t till you get it awesome, and even then it will be restricted to mainly classical and jazz. It is also the most sensitive speaker I have heard to showing differences between originals and reissues, and reissues sounded extremely poor. Just this week I was listening to a Fostex 3-way and the guy who had built it said while building he ran the Fostex midrange driver (which covers from just under 100hz all the way to 7khz) on its own for a while without a crossover, and it showed a massive variance to recordings until he put the crossovers in. Even then there was a difference but it was much less and it made reissues enjoyable. Fyi, best I heard reissues relative to originals were in DSPed systems.

But yes, if I had a lot of money today I could easily see myself loading up on original LPs first, then buying a Pnoe AER and running it with sub-5 watt amps on type 46, 45, 50, 2a3, and many other such valves, and the red sparrow on a linear tracker like Vyger.

That said, it is much easier to buy an AG trio, just plug it in to digital or low quality LPs, and get it sounding good right out of the box for all genres of music. Plus, it is much more widely distributed and serviced.

 

[morricab]

Loads has been written the AER Pnoe, maybe before you became active on the forum. The AER driver is probably the best driver, maybe Feastrex is great (which I havent't heard so I cannot say). I am not mentioning my favorite horns here because in some ways this is a pointless thread asking what are your favorite speakers, I have written about a lot of them. I was just responding to comments here on Trios and Tune Audio when they came up, but AER Pnoe is far superior

There is a very detailed thread on the AER on DIY audio by a Russian named Murat. He is one of the most methodical and sensible documenter I have come across on any forum, who went through a range of drivers from TAD, ALE, Goto, etc which he has detailed beautifully before landing on the AER highs with Goto bass. Another billionaire in Russia owned AER crossed over to Maxxonic woofers. I posted a lot of Murat's videos on the forum. He was well ahead of his time to document his research using accompanying videos.

Bill and I wrote about AER because we heard the General's system, which Ron later heard and wrote about it as the best system he had heard as well. I have heard the AER Pnoe in Genera'l's, in another place with some SETs, then obviously at Munich. At the General's It sounded better than almost all systems I have heard anywhere, while it sounded among the worst at Munich. Also, it was highly sensitive to any change anywhere in the chain. I later realized talking to those who have built speakers that this is due to being crossoverless - such speakers are like microscopes and very sensitive to changes. There are very few crossoverless speakers (I have heard the AER Pnoe, Loth MInistrel (stamm drivers), Yamamura). There were the Carfrae horns based on Lowther which might take the AER, and there is someone in NJ who makes some based on AER.

To me it indeed is the best commercial horn available and can be DIYed to the same, but it is a bit weird in terms of the fact that it is going to sound sh*t till you get it awesome, and even then it will be restricted to mainly classical and jazz. It is also the most sensitive speaker I have heard to showing differences between originals and reissues, and reissues sounded extremely poor. Just this week I was listening to a Fostex 3-way and the guy who had built it said while building he ran the Fostex midrange driver (which covers from just under 100hz all the way to 7khz) on its own for a while without a crossover, and it showed a massive variance to recordings until he put the crossovers in. Even then there was a difference but it was much less and it made reissues enjoyable. Fyi, best I heard reissues relative to originals were in DSPed systems.

But yes, if I had a lot of money today I could easily see myself first loading up on original LPs first, then buying a Pnoe AER and running it with sub-5 watt amps on type 46, 45, 50, 2a3, and many other such valves, and the red sparrow on a linear tracker like Vyger.

That said, it is much easier to buy an AG trio, just plug it in to digital or low quality LPs, and get it sounding good right out of the box for all genres of music. Plus, it is much more widely distributed and serviced.

I guess exaggerated high end due to whizzer cone break up could spotlight such differences. I went with the Supravox that doesn't have a whizzer and match it with a proper horn and no passive crossover to rob signal and that still exposes differences easily but doesn't make most of them unlistenable (there are always attrocious recordings that nothing will save).

 

[morricab]

Some variation of the Destination Audio Vista horns were at the CAS driven by 45 tubes a few years ago. I loved them. Should be on the short list audition for horn fans. Clear, seamless, well integrated imaging for horns, and very easy to listen to.

Yes, I know I would love to hear it and I think the horn is wood, no?

 

[bonzo75]

I guess exaggerated high end due to whizzer cone break up could spotlight such differences. I went with the Supravox that doesn't have a whizzer and match it with a proper horn and no passive crossover to rob signal and that still exposes differences easily but doesn't make most of them unlistenable (there are always attrocious recordings that nothing will save).

You are using single driver, and no DSP?

 

[manisandher]

I was just responding to comments here on Trios and Tune Audio when they came up, but AER Pnoe is far superior...

Ked, come and listen to my current fully active setup. I'm sure I've managed to close the gap significantly.

Mani.

 

[G T Audio]

I had the Duo Mezzo's XD's. I don't know if Ked ever heard those? With the bass dsp I thought the bass/mid integration was excellent. My only issue was that I became tired of what I perceived as a slight horn coloration. I have no way of knowing, but I felt wood in the horns, rather than abs, would have produced a more "organic" sound.

The horn colouration you heard is down to partnering amplification, cabling and system set up which the AG's are extremely critical of. If its not done right you will hear it!
Wood horns will produce more colouration than ABS or Kevlar if done correctly. Remember spherical horns are as near to perfect horns you can get. Cessaro when from machined wood horns to their current kevlar/glassfibre horns and the difference between the two from an audio prospective was night and day. If you were making a horn today there is no reason to use wood, other than because it is cheap. There are vastly better materials available today to make good horns from.

 

[G T Audio]

I never hear anyone comment on AER. I heard the AER Pnoe and thought they were outstanding. Aer has a wide range of speakers and I especially like their drivers.

I have heard that speaker quite a few times, but the Pnoe it is not a full range sound as it has no real bass. If you want bass you have to add a sub or an active bass horn.

 

[G T Audio]

Seeing as OP asked what are the top horns speakers in the world then one to add to the list is Cessaro Horns from Germany. Prices starting from €35,000 and go to well over €1,000,000 depending on the model.

 

[Fred Crane]

Loads has been written the AER Pnoe, maybe before you became active on the forum. The AER driver is probably the best driver, maybe Feastrex is great (which I havent't heard so I cannot say). I am not mentioning my favorite horns here because in some ways this is a pointless thread asking what are your favorite speakers, I have written about a lot of them. I was just responding to comments here on Trios and Tune Audio when they came up, but AER Pnoe is far superior

There is a very detailed thread on the AER on DIY audio by a Russian named Murat. He is one of the most methodical and sensible documenter I have come across on any forum, who went through a range of drivers from TAD, ALE, Goto, etc which he has detailed beautifully before landing on the AER highs with Goto bass. Another billionaire in Russia owned AER crossed over to Maxxonic woofers. I posted a lot of Murat's videos on the forum. He was well ahead of his time to document his research using accompanying videos.

Bill and I wrote about AER because we heard the General's system, which Ron later heard and wrote about it as the best system he had heard as well. I have heard the AER Pnoe in Genera'l's, in another place with some SETs, then obviously at Munich. At the General's It sounded better than almost all systems I have heard anywhere, while it sounded among the worst at Munich. Also, it was highly sensitive to any change anywhere in the chain. I later realized talking to those who have built speakers that this is due to being crossoverless - such speakers are like microscopes and very sensitive to changes. There are very few crossoverless speakers (I have heard the AER Pnoe, Loth MInistrel (stamm drivers), Yamamura). There were the Carfrae horns based on Lowther which might take the AER, and there is someone in NJ who makes some based on AER.

To me it indeed is the best commercial horn available and can be DIYed to the same, but it is a bit weird in terms of the fact that it is going to sound sh*t till you get it awesome, and even then it will be restricted to mainly classical and jazz. It is also the most sensitive speaker I have heard to showing differences between originals and reissues, and reissues sounded extremely poor. Just this week I was listening to a Fostex 3-way and the guy who had built it said while building he ran the Fostex midrange driver (which covers from just under 100hz all the way to 7khz) on its own for a while without a crossover, and it showed a massive variance to recordings until he put the crossovers in. Even then there was a difference but it was much less and it made reissues enjoyable. Fyi, best I heard reissues relative to originals were in DSPed systems.

But yes, if I had a lot of money today I could easily see myself first loading up on original LPs first, then buying a Pnoe AER and running it with sub-5 watt amps on type 46, 45, 50, 2a3, and many other such valves, and the red sparrow on a linear tracker like Vyger.

That said, it is much easier to buy an AG trio, just plug it in to digital or low quality LPs, and get it sounding good right out of the box for all genres of music. Plus, it is much more widely distributed and serviced.

You took me back with Loth-X. I used to enjoy their little speaker and had their BLH...you could stack the little ones tweeter to tweeter and get some very nice sound. The Beauhorns and R.L. Acoustic Lamhorns had special sounds too. (owned the former) I wonder if the guy in Jersey you're thinking of is Dave Slagle, (very close but in NY). I know Dave made some field coil Lowthers (later based on AER's, as the Lowther construction was a bit inconsistent) . There was a good speaker project in N. Carolina using them...excellent speaker that didn't get off of the ground due to illness and bad luck.

What you mentioned is a good argument for multiple systems : ) You can get a certain something special with a great full ranger and even one or two coax's I've heard. I guess the question is, how much of it do you lose when you add bass and dynamics. I ran Oris horns with AER's and custom made bass bins years ago. It was a great balance as the bass drivers were made to be complicit (super light cones, big magnets, hardwood bins) 45's on top and a 10 watt chip amp on the bottom.

Of course, there are those you date and those you marry. There are some relatively new field coil drivers on the market...every stripe (full range, compression, bass) that have some advantages when properly employed and voiced. I'm sure most here know about them already. Destination Audio is offering field coil drivers for all of their loudspeakers now. it's been an on-going R and D for some time. I think when people hear them, it's going reset expectations for certain aspects of this type of listening...essentially, that it can be so coherent, and tuned very simply to a room and personal taste...while running most any low powered tube out there. All of the 99/100db sens. speakers become 107db sens. or thereabout...even the smallish Ruby's.

One last thought on the full range driver in a horn...you can get fairly close with a large enough horn and a compression driver to cover quite a bit of the music. If you were willing to have something as large as the Pnoe, then you might also consider a similarly large horn (albeit a different shape) utilizing a top compression driver....it's different to be sure, and doesn't go as low, but there are certain advantages, and can be crossed over properly to some sort of bass. then you can have all of the music. Don't get me wrong, I love both.

 

[G T Audio]

But yes, if I had a lot of money today I could easily see myself first loading up on original LPs first, then buying a Pnoe AER and running it with sub-5 watt amps on type 46, 45, 50, 2a3, and many other such valves, and the red sparrow on a linear tracker like Vyger.

That said, it is much easier to buy an AG trio, just plug it in to digital or low quality LPs, and get it sounding good right out of the box for all genres of music. Plus, it is much more widely distributed and serviced.

It's important to keep commercial designs and DIY designs separate as they are very different beasts and have differing sets of requirements. Which is why commercial products like AG and Cessaro horns can be great buys, especially some of the older AG models...

P.S. Re the Red Sparrow cartridge: this requires a dedicated phono stage design for that cartridge to really get the very best from it's design.

 

[bonzo75]

I wonder if the guy in Jersey you're thinking of is Dave Slagle, (very close but in NY). I know Dave made some field coil Lowthers (later based on AER's, as the Lowther construction was a bit inconsistent) . There was a good speaker project in N. Carolina using them...excellent speaker that didn't get off of the ground due to illness and bad luck.

No, it is Charney Audio.

yes I am aware of Dave Slagle's Lowther FC though never got to hear it. A guy who had made horns out of that moved to Slagle's stacked quads I think, if you are referring to John P on the gon.

What you mentioned is a good argument for multiple systems : ) You can get a certain something special with a great full ranger and even one or two coax's I've heard. I guess the question is, how much of it do you lose when you add bass and dynamics. I ran Oris horns with AER's and custom made bass bins years ago. It was a great balance as the bass drivers were made to be complicit (super light cones, big magnets, hardwood bins) 45's on top and a 10 watt chip amp on the bottom.

yes but the whole point of running full range AER is not having a crossover, imo, to bass bins. The AER in Oris were up to BD3, even lower, and there were significant jumps to BD4 and from BD4 to BD5. Bill and I heard from BD4 to BD5 and Murat has a video where he shows difference between BD3 and BD3b.

One last thought on the full range driver in a horn...you can get fairly close with a large enough horn and a compression driver to cover quite a bit of the music. If you were willing to have something as large as the Pnoe, then you might also consider a similarly large horn (albeit a different shape) utilizing a top compression driver....it's different to be sure, and doesn't go as low, but there are certain advantages, and can be crossed over properly to some sort of bass. then you can have all of the music. Don't get me wrong, I love both.

Yes I love dual woofer front loaded horns which do exactly that, have a good CD on top and two woofers at bottom. You can throw any music at them and they can accommodate a range of SETs and low watt push pulls. You don't lose anything on a Pnoe BD5 listening to large orchestral works like Beethoven 9th or Mahler 2. In fact you gain more because not having the crossover increases the dynamic range. But this can be heard only on high quality LPs.

Great experience on your part, though, having gone through these horns.

 

[morricab]

You are using single driver, and no DSP?

I am mating a single drive to a compression driver/horn using a DSP for the crossover (external DACs).