Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

[oldmustang]

Ditto. I have an Uptone JS-2 and use the Gotham 11301 JSSG360 you identified. Ghent Audio is an outstanding direct sales vendor. THis is an excellent combo on my Nordost QNET switch. I may keep the Nordost switch in series with the Taiko (is "pre-conditioning" valuable?) but the nice part of the JS-2 is that is can output to 2 devices easily so all I'll need is another cable.

Just be aware that the two supply rails of the JS-2 share a common ground plane and so electrical isolation between two devices powered by the JS-2 will be compromised, if that is important to you. I own a JS-2 and it is a very solid high-current (5A) power supply.

Steve Z

 

[marty]

Just be aware that the two supply rails of the JS-2 share a common ground plane and so electrical isolation between two devices powered by the JS-2 will be compromised, if that is important to you. I own a JS-2 and it is a very solid high-current (5A) power supply.

Steve Z

Thanks Steve. I guess I'm hoping Taiko will weigh in if it looks like a potential problem powering their switch with the second rail of the JS-2. However I have a spare Chinese LPS's if the set up does indeed prefer a fully independent device. The Chinese unit is equal to the performance of the JS-2 on my cable modem, which may or may not mean anything! My guess is that a little experimenting will be in order, which should be very easy and straight forward to perform.

 

[Christiaan Punter]

Hi all, here are the three summary PDF documents that were uploaded a few days ago, updated to include the latest info. (Updated 11-01-2023)

- TACDA & TACDD DAC & Interface Summary
- Taiko Network Card & Switch Summary
- Taiko Router Summary

 

[Taiko Audio]

Thanks Steve. I guess I'm hoping Taiko will weigh in if it looks like a potential problem powering their switch with the second rail of the JS-2.

No problem to power both from the JS-2.

I may keep the Nordost switch in series with the Taiko (is "pre-conditioning" valuable?)

"Pre-conditioning" is not something which applies in this case, overall the noise level will be elevated keeping the Nordost in, however some switches can add "noise" you may actually like so do try and don't just take my word for it.

One of the reasons this switch took so long to release is we started out designing "standard" switches, low noise regulation, better clocking, experimenting with "stacking", our first switch design dates back to 2020 already, this is nowadays widely available from a lot of vendors. The "big" or "extreme" switch which is in pre-sale now is our 5th switch design, the "small" we are considering launching as well is our 4th. These 2 switches are a different and afaik unique approach offering an actual significant noise reduction in the server by other means then just designing the lowest possible noise version in an attempt at reducing noise as much as possible OR by actually adding noise introducing an effect one may like or not. Evidence the large number of people removing their switches and replacing "audiophile" network cables with regular CAT5/CAT6 resulting in better sound with last year's large OS update.

 

[Taiko Audio]

Please let me know if I missed any questions or if anything remains unclear.

 

[John T]

No problem to power both from the JS-2.



"Pre-conditioning" is not something which applies in this case, overall the noise level will be elevated keeping the Nordost in, however some switches can add "noise" you may actually like so do try and don't just take my word for it.

One of the reasons this switch took so long to release is we started out designing "standard" switches, low noise regulation, better clocking, experimenting with "stacking", our first switch design dates back to 2020 already, this is nowadays widely available from a lot of vendors. The "big" or "extreme" switch which is in pre-sale now is our 5th switch design, the "small" we are considering launching as well is our 4th. These 2 switches are a different and afaik unique approach offering an actual significant noise reduction in the server by other means then just designing the lowest possible noise version in an attempt at reducing noise as much as possible OR by actually adding noise introducing an effect one may like or not. Evidence the large number of people removing their switches and replacing "audiophile" network cables with regular CAT5/CAT6 resulting in better sound with last year's large OS update.

I think many will try "pre-conditioning". Most of us have expensive switches and the way most of us are wired we will attempt to utilize. Will this translate to a positive? Sounds like it won't. I intend on using the new switch on its own, establish my reference, than experiment with the M12 in the chain. Then sell it!

 

[Malcng]

Hi all, here are the three summary PDF documents that were uploaded a few days ago, now updated to include the latest info.

- TACDA & TACDD DAC & Interface Summary
- Taiko Network Card & Switch Summary
- Taiko Router Summary

Very interesting and logical, thank you. I understand that, even after all of this, Emile believes that there is still a lot more that can be achieved by way of further improvements, which is astounding really - although potentially very exciting.

I hope I am wrong - which might well be the case based upon XDMS user feedback - but whilst ‘I’m all in’ on the above developments, I am not expecting huge gains in sound quality and my mind boggles at the prospect of yet more to come in future. In the past, I have always been able to hear how and where my system needs improving but having listened very closely through headphones this weekend, I don’t hear very much at all that needs fixing - and that’s just using Roon. I can see margins for improvement through loudspeakers, but it’s not huge. Maybe that’s just a case of me not knowing what I don’t know?

In any event, I am very intrigued and am certainly very glad to be along for the ride with great enthusiasm and appreciation.

 

[matthias]

Please let me know if I missed any questions or if anything remains unclear.

IIRC, someone asked about the prospective price of the TACDA PCIe card.

Matt

 

[Taiko Audio]

IIRC, someone asked about the prospective price of the TACDA PCIe card.

Matt

We don't know yet, not even ballpark. This has a very large R&D component we need to think about on how to recoup.

 

[jelt2359]

No problem to power both from the JS-2.



"Pre-conditioning" is not something which applies in this case, overall the noise level will be elevated keeping the Nordost in, however some switches can add "noise" you may actually like so do try and don't just take my word for it.

One of the reasons this switch took so long to release is we started out designing "standard" switches, low noise regulation, better clocking, experimenting with "stacking", our first switch design dates back to 2020 already, this is nowadays widely available from a lot of vendors. The "big" or "extreme" switch which is in pre-sale now is our 5th switch design, the "small" we are considering launching as well is our 4th. These 2 switches are a different and afaik unique approach offering an actual significant noise reduction in the server by other means then just designing the lowest possible noise version in an attempt at reducing noise as much as possible OR by actually adding noise introducing an effect one may like or not. Evidence the large number of people removing their switches and replacing "audiophile" network cables with regular CAT5/CAT6 resulting in better sound with last year's large OS update.

I remember during the OS upgrade there were certain routers from certain users that needed replacing.

It’s clear we should remove switches before the Taiko switch; should we also remove second routers (from an objective, noise related perspective, not a subjective “preference” one). Or just like during the OS upgrade, does the answer depend on what the main router is?

 

[Rhapsody]

Very interesting and logical, thank you. I understand that, even after all of this, Emile believes that there is still a lot more that can be achieved by way of further improvements, which is astounding really - although potentially very exciting.

I hope I am wrong - which might well be the case based upon XDMS user feedback - but whilst ‘I’m all in’ on the above developments, I am not expecting huge gains in sound quality and my mind boggles at the prospect of yet more to come in future. In the past, I have always been able to hear how and where my system needs improving but having listened very closely through headphones this weekend, I don’t hear very much at all that needs fixing - and that’s just using Roon. I can see margins for improvement through loudspeakers, but it’s not huge. Maybe that’s just a case of me not knowing what I don’t know?

In any event, I am very intrigued and am certainly very glad to be along for the ride with great enthusiasm and appreciation.

My experience is that when things sound REALLY GOOD or PERFECT in my estimation and I can't believe it can get any better and then I hear a major sonic uptick, I'm usually very surprised as I thought it could not improve or did I even care if it did.

I expect the sonic gains coming over the next six months are going to be MIND BENDING

 

[Steve Williams]

My experience is that when things sound REALLY GOOD or PERFECT in my estimation and I can't believe it can get any better and then I hear a major sonic uptick, I'm usually very surprised as I thought it could not improve or did I even care if it did.

I expect the sonic gains coming over the next six months are going to be MIND BENDING

I spent this past weekend with XDMS and my library as well as streaming. I know what people mean when they say they can't believe where it is now with the feeling of doubt that it can't get any better. I've learned that when Emile says he has a few more tricks up his sleeve that we should be prepared for yet more improvement. He has never failed on his promises. For those who don't yet have XDMS be prepared for something extraordinary. One can only begin to understand once they have it in their system.

AS for multiple switches, I have gotten from Emile's posts that if one switch, his will be the game changer and multiple switches will not be necessary and will likely introduce noise which his doesn't

I've learned to follow Emile's suggestions and never try to outguess or outsmart him. For me whatever I use to power the switch will be stopgap until the BPS arrives hopefully late May.

As for Bob's comment that the coming gains over the next 6 months will be nothing short of sensational and personally, I can't wait

 

[DW101]

Very interesting and logical, thank you. I understand that, even after all of this, Emile believes that there is still a lot more that can be achieved by way of further improvements, which is astounding really - although potentially very exciting.

I hope I am wrong - which might well be the case based upon XDMS user feedback - but whilst ‘I’m all in’ on the above developments, I am not expecting huge gains in sound quality and my mind boggles at the prospect of yet more to come in future. In the past, I have always been able to hear how and where my system needs improving but having listened very closely through headphones this weekend, I don’t hear very much at all that needs fixing - and that’s just using Roon. I can see margins for improvement through loudspeakers, but it’s not huge. Maybe that’s just a case of me not knowing what I don’t know?

In any event, I am very intrigued and am certainly very glad to be along for the ride with great enthusiasm and appreciation.

Its a really interesting question - I had found myself thinking that same as you in the past, but I'm with @Rhapsody and @Steve Williams on this one.

All statements made by @Taiko Audio either directly convey or allude to the fact we're still 'suffering' widespread effects of what might even have been previously considered low levels of noise in many / all aspects of our systems.

The improvements we're about to experience may perhaps manifest in different / additional dimensions than we - or me at least - are used to, but as difficult as it may be for us to believe listening to what we are now, after my experience with the Extreme and XDMS, I'm sure they are there.

I'm looking forward to finding out for certain!

 

[Steve Williams]

I'm looking forward to finding out for certain!

Not sure if you are on Discord but I find I love looking forward to the new builds that are released every week and to see the ever better platform developing before our eyes and to hear the improvements.
This is like finding a prize in every box of Cracker Jacks with the best yet to come

 

[simorag]

I hope I am wrong - which might well be the case based upon XDMS user feedback - but whilst ‘I’m all in’ on the above developments, I am not expecting huge gains in sound quality and my mind boggles at the prospect of yet more to come in future. In the past, I have always been able to hear how and where my system needs improving but having listened very closely through headphones this weekend, I don’t hear very much at all that needs fixing - and that’s just using Roon. I can see margins for improvement through loudspeakers, but it’s not huge. Maybe that’s just a case of me not knowing what I don’t know?

In any event, I am very intrigued and am certainly very glad to be along for the ride with great enthusiasm and appreciation.

To my ears, switching from Roon to XDMS is very apparent both on loudspeakers and on headphones. The additional clarity, snappiness and both spatial transparency / depth and musical resolution are striking. Getting back to Roon makes the sound comparatively slower, muddier, more diffuse.

By the way, I have had the experience in the (recent) past that some gear-induced modifications on sound are more apparent through loudspeakers than over headphones, especially when the spatial reconstruction is most affected. For example, I changed the setup of my EtherRegen by using A-Side sockets for both input and output, instead of using the Uptone recommended B-Side as the output to the Extreme and the loudspeakers presented soundstage had a huge expansion (to my total disbelief BTW) which was indeed less obvious via headphones.

As I listen 95% of the time via headphones, I hope / am confident the switch + network card improvement will fall in the ones easily heard via HP
What I also recollect from this exciting journey Taiko is involving us users in is that as long as they get in control of more aspects (hardware and software) of the digital signal chain, the opportunities for synergistic and relatively predictable improvements keep expanding.

I suspect that some further tricks in XDMS will become possible - or just more effective in terms of SQ - in a configuration where the Extreme Router, Switch and Network Card are present.

 

[DW101]

Not sure if you are on Discord but I find I love looking forward to the new builds that are released every week and to see the ever better platform developing before our eyes and to hear the improvements.
This is like finding a prize in every box of Cracker Jacks with the best yet to come

I am, and totally agree!

 

[marty]

"Pre-conditioning" is not something which applies in this case, overall the noise level will be elevated keeping the Nordost in, however some switches can add "noise" you may actually like so do try and don't just take my word for it.

One of the reasons this switch took so long to release is we started out designing "standard" switches, low noise regulation, better clocking, experimenting with "stacking", our first switch design dates back to 2020 already, this is nowadays widely available from a lot of vendors. The "big" or "extreme" switch which is in pre-sale now is our 5th switch design, the "small" we are considering launching as well is our 4th. These 2 switches are a different and afaik unique approach offering an actual significant noise reduction in the server by other means then just designing the lowest possible noise version in an attempt at reducing noise as much as possible OR by actually adding noise introducing an effect one may like or not. Evidence the large number of people removing their switches and replacing "audiophile" network cables with regular CAT5/CAT6 resulting in better sound with last year's large OS update.

Emile, here's my thinking on whether to retain, or not, the Nordost QNET switch in series with the Taiko switch.

1) The first consideration is that I have a single ethernet wall port coming from the cable modem 50 feet away to the part of the house that has the music room. I need to access the ethernet in the music room for 2 purposes a) the Taiko switch and b) an ethernet line to my smart TV. Since the Taiko switch does not have any spare ports, I'm essentially one port short so the Nordost switch will be useful in providing a port to send ethernet to the TV. If there is an alternate method that is simpler (a simple splitter at the RJ45 wall port?), please advise.

2) The real attraction to retaining the Nordost switch might be in the area of noise reduction, which always emerges as a key consideration for your approach on how you intend to optimize the entire signal pathway from ISP to the Extreme. Here's a partial factory description of the Norsdost Switch:
Each port on the QNET is optimized for its application. Three of the five ports are auto-negotiated 1000BASE-T (1 Gbps) capable, which should be used for the router and other generic network devices. The remaining two ports are fixed to 100BASE-TX (100 Mbps), a speed at which internal noise reduction is possible, making these ports best used for primary audio servers/players or external media sources.

What is unclear is exactly what they mean when they say"internal noise reduction is possible"? Does this mean that noise reduction in those ports only occurs on Tuesdays? Sunny days only? Any day but only at a certain time? Are special incantations required? I have no clue what they mean when they say "noise reduction is possible" but the question is, if noise reduction is indeed possible by using one of their 100Mbps ports, could this be advantageous since it falls in line with your hypothesis that noise reduction in networks in general, seems to be a good thing! I think the only correct answer at this point is- nobody knows, at least not yet. Thus, since putting the Nordost switch in series with the Taiko switch is easy to do, there's little down side to trying it both ways and seeing if any differences can be heard. Would I be thrilled not to need the Nordost switch at all? You bet. Bye-bye Nordost = found money!

 

[dminches]

Emile, here's my thinking on whether to retain, or not, the Nordost QNET switch in series with the Taiko switch.

1) The first consideration is that I have a single ethernet wall port coming from the cable modem 50 feet away to the part of the house that has the music room. I need to access the ethernet in the music room for 2 purposes a) the Taiko switch and b) an ethernet line to my smart TV. Since the Taiko switch does not have any spare ports, I'm essentially one port short so the Nordost switch will be useful in providing a port to send ethernet to the TV. If there is an alternate method that is simpler (a simple splitter at the wall switch?), please advise.

Do you not have a strong wifi signal in your music room that the smart TV could use? In one of my rooms that’s what I do and it works fine.

 

[DW101]

Emile, here's my thinking on whether to retain, or not, the Nordost QNET switch in series with the Taiko switch.

1) The first consideration is that I have a single ethernet wall port coming from the cable modem 50 feet away to the part of the house that has the music room. I need to access the ethernet in the music room for 2 purposes a) the Taiko switch and b) an ethernet line to my smart TV. Since the Taiko switch does not have any spare ports, I'm essentially one port short so the Nordost switch will be useful in providing a port to send ethernet to the TV. If there is an alternate method that is simpler (a simple splitter at the RJ45 wall port?), please advise.

2) The real attraction to retaining the Nordost switch might be in the area of noise reduction, which always emerges as a key consideration for your approach on how you intend to optimize the entire signal pathway from ISP to the Extreme. Here's a partial factory description of the Norsdost Switch:
Each port on the QNET is optimized for its application. Three of the five ports are auto-negotiated 1000BASE-T (1 Gbps) capable, which should be used for the router and other generic network devices. The remaining two ports are fixed to 100BASE-TX (100 Mbps), a speed at which internal noise reduction is possible, making these ports best used for primary audio servers/players or external media sources.

What is unclear is exactly what they mean when they say"internal noise reduction is possible"? Does this mean that noise reduction in those ports only occurs on Tuesdays? Sunny days only? Any day but only at a certain time? Are special incantations required? I have no clue what they mean when they say "noise reduction is possible" but the question is, if noise reduction is indeed possible by using one of their 100Mbps ports, could this be advantageous since it falls in line with your hypothesis that noise reduction in networks in general, seems to be a good thing! I think the only correct answer at this point is- nobody knows, at least not yet. Thus, since putting the Nordost switch in series with the Taiko switch is easy to do, there's little down side to trying it both ways and seeing if any differences can be heard. Would I be thrilled not to need the Nordost switch at all? You bet. Bye-bye Nordost = found money!

May be irrelevant as not the same switch, but my experience with the 100Mbps port on the Uptone EtherRegen chimes with what @simorag mentioned earlier, that the Extreme sounds better via the faster ports despite the 100Mbps ports being ‘lower noise’.

 

[onlychild]

Emile, any update/pics on the black switch?