Seismion - new active isolation platform from Germany

[TLi]

The advantage of Reactio is simplicity. The advantage of Reactio Audio-Pro should be sophistication. Sky is the limit for what can be done on it.

Off my head is an apps in smartphone to link with isolator, smartphone is your display Via Bluetooth. Any display on the isolator will be too small and very inconvenient to look at. Of course, everything digital can be turned off. All analog while listening is the best. The reduction of vibration will have to be around 55dB. The amount of reduction can be controlled from smartphone, user can demonstrate the difference in sound with different reduction.

This Reactio Audio-Pro will be head and should be above anything in the market.

 

[Seismion]

Off my head is an apps in smartphone to link with isolator, smartphone is your display Via Bluetooth. Any display on the isolator will be too small and very inconvenient to look at. Of course, everything digital can be turned off. All analog while listening is the best. The reduction of vibration will have to be around 55dB. The amount of reduction can be controlled from smartphone, user can demonstrate the difference in sound with different reduction.

The Reactio A-Pro will be something based on our industry Reactio Pro version, which means auto leveling, better than 40dB reduction and diagnosis of inner vibration control. Special about it is the sub 1 Hz isolation, which you won‘t find in other commercial products. The price tag of these Pro models is 3x-4x the regular Reactio. However, the vibration isolation electronics and sensors are the same for the Reactio and the Reactio Pro. The better isolation comes from softer support elements in the Pro version, which needs to be leveled for different wights of payload.

Apps and such stuff is unfortunately out of scope of our products.

 

[Cellcbern]

Our Isolators aren't specifically designed for microscopes. They are made to enable the most challenging requirements for vibration reduction, and I believe they do their job very well. Please compare the attached measurement of the standard Reactio, taken in our basement, with the worlds best Precision Laboratories. You should notice that these Labs are standing on passive isolators, I think it is very interesting how they achieve sub 10nm/s vibration amplitude by passive isolation. The Reactio is able to achieve sub 10nm/s (VC-M) above 10Hz, when placed in a quite place.

Precision Laboratory

www.fkf.mpg.de

View attachment 102761
By Sebastian

Whether they were designed for microscopes or a broader range of (non-audio) devices doesn't change my point which is that I've seen no comparisons between yours or other active platforms and state of the art passive devices and therefore have no basis for presuming that active vibration management is necessarily superior to passive. The Precision Laboratory link you provided would seem to support my point since the Laboratory uses passive vibration management yet achieves measured results comparable to what you posted for the Seismion platform. I accept that the Seismion and other active platforms achieve extraordinary results because of the feedback on this forum from users of the devices (who have aknowledged some limitations) whose knowledge and opinions I respect. When I upgrade my vinyl setup I will look seriously at the Seismion. I will also look at passive devices at least one of which purportedly "eliminates vibration at the molecular level as measured on the nanoscale".

 

[Cellcbern]

Yes, I listend to both of them, the Seismion many times & I own one, but the latter only briefly once.

I have been considering to get a Herzan or Accurion for several yrs, I didn't take the plunge because of their high prices.
I won't let go the more reasonably priced Seismion!


BTW you have to place the Babel at the Center of Gravity underneath the audio components directly for the max effect.
This may be unfeasible for some turntables and some components with uneven bottom or protruding screws.

The Seismion have 2 sizes and high applicability.

FYI - Wellfloat has apparently developed a platform that fits on top of the Babel which allows for adjustment to make sure a component's center of gravity is directly above it. It also eliminates issues of protruding screws and uneven casework, and should facilitate its use with turntables.

 

[Seismion]

Probably the graph we showed above with the spectrum given in RMS velocity is a bit difficult to read/understand for some users. In metrology, the spectra are typically given in RMS velocity of third-octave bands, and the abbreviation 'VC' refers to 'Vibration criteria'. You find several websites at TMC, MinusK, Newport and Seismion if you want to read further details about that.

I have converted the velocity spectrum into an amplitude spectrum, which might be more familiar to you. Basically you see that the 'Reactio' still isolates vibrations down to nanometer and even picometer scale.



The Wellfloat Babel, which is a passive isolator and mentioned above in this thread, claims that it can diminish vibrations down to the molecular level. While this is not a very precise definition, it should be in the range of 1 nanometer.

As our measurements prove, also our 'Reactio' is capable to isolate such small vibrations and even below. This should be the reason why users of high quality isolators experience a 'revelation of dynamics at extreme whispering volume'.


But there is a fundamental difference between all passive and all active isolators, which is cruical to music reproduction, I believe:

All passive isolators rely on a very soft and weakly damped structure (a pendulum in case of Wellfloat Babel), because they do not generate any active counter force per se, and therefore need to cut the excitation-path from the ground as much as possible. The drawback is, that they are extremely sensitive to direct excitations (for example a turntable), and the settling time is very long, since the soft and undamped support does not create significant counterforces. You can imagine if you hit the pendulum, it will move forward and backwards for several seconds if not longer. An active isolator like 'Reactio' relies on a 'skyhook-damping' principle (see https://seismion.com/technology/). The support element is much stiffer than for high-quality passive isolators, and on top there is active damping due to feedback control. This constellation settles all direct excitations within a fraction of a second, since the synthetic damper is rather stiff.

My educated guess would be following:
A fast settling of active isolators brings it a big step ahead of passive devices. This will be especially recognizable when the dynamics of music strongly changes from very loud to suddenly very quiet, like in classical music for example. Passive isolators would continue to vibrate for some seconds until vibrations are settled to the nanometer range again. Consider to hit a pendulum and it would vibrate for many periods until eventually stopping. I think that this would have a 'smearing' effect on the reproduction after some percussive sounds like drums or even from the piano.

So, especially when we talk about dynamics, the transmissibility is not the only measure to look at.

But of course I totally agree - the best way would be to experience the difference by a side-by-side listening comparison. This is just a technical explanation of the physical principles behind it.

Marcus

 

[Cellcbern]

Probably the graph we showed above with the spectrum given in RMS velocity is a bit difficult to read/understand for some users. In metrology, the spectra are typically given in RMS velocity of third-octave bands, and the abbreviation 'VC' refers to 'Vibration criteria'. You find several websites at TMC, MinusK, Newport and Seismion if you want to read further details about that.

I have converted the velocity spectrum into an amplitude spectrum, which might be more familiar to you. Basically you see that the 'Reactio' still isolates vibrations down to nanometer and even picometer scale.

View attachment 102777

The Wellfloat Babel, which is a passive isolator and mentioned above in this thread, claims that it can diminish vibrations down to the molecular level. While this is not a very precise definition, it should be in the range of 1 nanometer.

As our measurements prove, also our 'Reactio' is capable to isolate such small vibrations and even below. This should be the reason why users of high quality isolators experience a 'revelation of dynamics at extreme whispering volume'.


But there is a fundamental difference between all passive and all active isolators, which is cruical to music reproduction, I believe:

All passive isolators rely on a very soft and weakly damped structure (a pendulum in case of Wellfloat Babel), because they do not generate any active counter force per se, and therefore need to cut the excitation-path from the ground as much as possible. The drawback is, that they are extremely sensitive to direct excitations (for example a turntable), and the settling time is very long, since the soft and undamped support does not create significant counterforces. You can imagine if you hit the pendulum, it will move forward and backwards for several seconds if not longer. An active isolator like 'Reactio' relies on a 'skyhook-damping' principle (see https://seismion.com/technology/). The support element is much stiffer than for high-quality passive isolators, and on top there is active damping due to feedback control. This constellation settles all direct excitations within a fraction of a second, since the synthetic damper is rather stiff.

My educated guess would be following:
A fast settling of active isolators brings it a big step ahead of passive devices. This will be especially recognizable when the dynamics of music strongly changes from very loud to suddenly very quiet, like in classical music for example. Passive isolators would continue to vibrate for some seconds until vibrations are settled to the nanometer range again. Consider to hit a pendulum and it would vibrate for many periods until eventually stopping. I think that this would have a 'smearing' effect on the reproduction after some percussive sounds like drums or even from the piano.

So, especially when we talk about dynamics, the transmissibility is not the only measure to look at.

But of course I totally agree - the best way would be to experience the difference by a side-by-side listening comparison. This is just a technical explanation of the physical principles behind it.

Marcus

Note that the descriptions of the audible improvements that the Babel provides from reviewers/users are extraordinary and unprecedented. I would like to see comparable descriptions of how/where the Seismion and other active platforms audibly improve music reproduction, especially for components other than turntables which the WBF discussion has focused on. Don't doubt they exist - I just haven't seen them.

 

[Seismion]

Note that the descriptions of the improvements that the Babel provides from reviewers/users are extraordinary and unprecedented. I would like to see comparable detailed descriptions of specifically how/where the Seismion and other active platforms improve music reproduction. They may exist - I just haven't seen them.

I believe that‘s the aim of this thread


I took a look at the construction of the babel.
What I see are many mechanical connections and screws. A point to consider in mechanics, when it comes to sub-micron scale, is the noise generated by friction in each mechanical connection. Espesially prestress and connections under stress will release the mechanical stress in sudden steps generating a pop noise. We did measurements on this some years ago. That‘s also a reason why we avoid mechanical prestress if possible in our isolators. The Reactio uses elastomer support elements, with the mechanical stress concentrated in the elastomer support element.

Cellcbern: Do you have any measurements of the Babel showing its performance in nanometer scale? Especially I am interested in the low frequency performance below 20Hz, which is the most prone to vibration in any non rural area..

Sebastian

 

[Cellcbern]

I believe that‘s the aim of this thread


I took a look at the construction of the babel.
What I see are many mechanical connections and screws. A point to consider in mechanics, when it comes to sub-micron scale, is the noise generated by friction in each mechanical connection. Espesially prestress and connections under stress will release the mechanical stress in sudden steps generating a pop noise. We did measurements on this some years ago. That‘s also a reason why we avoid mechanical prestress if possible in our isolators. The Reactio uses elastomer support elements, with the mechanical stress concentrated in the elastomer support element.

Cellcbern: Do you have any measurements of the Babel showing its performance in nanometer scale? Especially I am interested in the low frequency performance below 20Hz, which is the most prone to vibration in any non rural area..

Sebastian

I don't have measurements for the Babel. If anyone knows how to access the Japanese patent
(Japanese Patent No. 7104389). PCT: (Patent Cooperation Treaty) pending,
perhaps there are some measurements among the patent claims.

I am not interested in "educated guesses" or other theory based on looking at as opposed to listening to the device, and I am not interested in charts and measurements which cannot tell me how the Seismion sounds. I'm satisfied to wait for someone to do comparative listening tests between the two, and if I have the opportunity to audition both I will.

 

[Seismion]

I don't have measurements for the Babel. If anyone knows how to access the Japanese patent
(Japanese Patent No. 7104389). PCT: (Patent Cooperation Treaty) pending,
perhaps there are some measurements among the patent claims.

Here it is, it is actually a patent

JP7104389B1 - Insulator - Google Patents

A first plate-shaped member (10) to an N-th plate-shaped member (N is an integer of 3 or more) are arranged in a plurality of stages, counting from the first plate-shaped member (10). Assuming that the k-th plate-shaped member is the k-th plate-shaped member (k is an integer of 2 or more and N-1...

patents.google.com

Sebastian

 

[Holmz]

…
View attachment 97637

^that^ is quite the Swiss stack On the left and both sides of the rack.

 

[Cellcbern]

Here it is, it is actually a patent

JP7104389B1 - Insulator - Google Patents

A first plate-shaped member (10) to an N-th plate-shaped member (N is an integer of 3 or more) are arranged in a plurality of stages, counting from the first plate-shaped member (10). Assuming that the k-th plate-shaped member is the k-th plate-shaped member (k is an integer of 2 or more and N-1...

patents.google.com

Sebastian

One of several Wellfloat patents-the first being for devices to isolate pianos and other musical instruments from the floor. The description in the patent for the Babel is "...an insulator that suppresses vibration transmission between a vibrating device and an external surface....". This sounds like vibration isolation/dissipation in both directions. An active platform on the other hand appears to be designed to suppress vibration transmission from vibrating external surfaces (e.g., floor, table) to non-vibrating devices (microscopes and other sensitive electronic devices). This sounds like vibration isolation/dissipation in one direction, which may explain the issues noted by some posters with turntables that generate "self-noise".

 

[Seismion]

The advantage of Reactio is simplicity. The advantage of Reactio Audio-Pro should be sophistication. Sky is the limit for what can be done on it.

Off my head is an apps in smartphone to link with isolator, smartphone is your display Via Bluetooth. Any display on the isolator will be too small and very inconvenient to look at. Of course, everything digital can be turned off. All analog while listening is the best. The reduction of vibration will have to be around 55dB. The amount of reduction can be controlled from smartphone, user can demonstrate the difference in sound with different reduction.

This Reactio Audio-Pro will be head and should be above anything in the market.

O.K. back to our original topic - active isolation and the new audiophile Reactio Pro and probably the Reactio Ultra.

So I need some input from all of you about the size and payload, because I would like to design only one size in the beginning.

My first guess is 600mm wide and 500mm deep and about 100-120mm hight? 500x400 is to small for the Pro‘s components. Maximum weight capacity?

There will be a small OLED-display, which will show the vibration level and diagnostics. The Pure Mode will turn off all digital circuitry (display, microcontrollers and motor drivers) by solid state relays.

The Pro will offer 40-45dB of reduction.
The Ultra should reach 55-60dB reduction, by using 2x sensors and actuators in parallel.

Sebastian

 

[TLi]

O.K. back to our original topic - active isolation and the new audiophile Reactio Pro and probably the Reactio Ultra.

So I need some input from all of you about the size and payload, because I would like to design only one size in the beginning.

My first guess is 600mm wide and 500mm deep and about 100-120mm hight? 500x400 is to small for the Pro‘s components. Maximum weight capacity?

There will be a small OLED-display, which will show the vibration level and diagnostics. The Pure Mode will turn off all digital circuitry (display, microcontrollers and motor drivers) by solid state relays.

The Pro will offer 40-45dB of reduction.
The Ultra should reach 55-60dB reduction, by using 2x sensors and actuators in parallel.

Sebastian

Great!! It is good to know you are going for the best of the best. The Ultra is really something I am looking for. Pure Mode is certainly a must.

The size and payload weight vary tremendously depending on the equipment used. For me, 40x50cm and 80kg payload suits me best as I intend to use it under my preamp and phonostage. They are standard size HiFi equipment which are around 15-20kg. 50x60cm can also be used but it means it has to sit on top of the rack, hence limiting placement. 50x60cm suits turntable more and some turntables are around 100kg. It is difficult to make one size fit all Pro or Ultra.

At this level, we expect the isolator to be made to order and don't mind to wait for a few months for it. My suggestion for the first run is to make several Ultra's at 40x50cm and 80kg payload. It tends to suit more situation than other combination.

 

[Seismion]

At this level, we expect the isolator to be made to order and don't mind to wait for a few months for it. My suggestion for the first run is to make several Ultra's at 40x50cm and 80kg payload. It tends to suit more situation than other combination.

O.k. At which side should the display and buttons be places, the longer or shorter?

Sebastian

 

[TLi]

O.k. At which side should the display and buttons be places, the longer or shorter?

Sebastian

Longer side is usually better. Most HiFi equipment is a rectangular box with the longer facing forward.

 

[Seismion]

Longer side is usually better. Most HiFi equipment is a rectangular box with the longer facing forward.

O.k. interface and connectors will be generally placed on the longer sides..

So: 1st version Reactio Ultra 500mm wide and 400mm deep - payload 80-90kg max. payload. Target isolation >=60dB.

Does 600mm x 500mm and 160kg payload fit the very most audiophile turntables? Maybe a bit larger is better?

Sebastian

 

[TLi]

60x50cm and 160kg should suit most highend turntables, of course there are quite a few turntables require something bigger. It is difficult to include everything.

 

[Skyline126]

My 600x500mm Reactio arrived two days ago. The size Just nice to fit for my Clear Audio turntable. Very impressive the overall improvement been brought by this active isolation board.

 

[Zeotrope]

Nice! Looks great.
I just ordered the regular size for my Wolf von Langa field coil power supply. The Shunyata Denali V2 will also be going on a Taika Daiza. I had contemplated a second Seismion; but that may be overkill...

I have discovered that field coil power supplies are extremely sensitive to vibration and incoming AC power quality, including ground noise.
The improvement to noise floor, dynamics, resolution from properly isolating, grounding, and filtering the AC have been massive.

Can someone who has ordered a linear power supply share the DC barrel size and other specs?
- DC power input barrel diameter
- DC power input barrel polarity
- voltage
- current
Thanks!

 

[Kingsrule]

Longer side is usually better. Most HiFi equipment is a rectangular box with the longer facing forward.

No The shorter side..Who wants the display in their face all the time?