I'm contemplating putting my direct drive Primary Control Kinea turntable on Seismion. However, the turntable currently has Revopods installed. Does anyone know if revopod would be synergistic with Seismion?
Seismion - new active isolation platform from Germany
- Thread starter TLi
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I don't know for sure about the suspension system of Kinea turntable. Is it a rigid suspension?
Most direct drive TT tend to have rigid support. If that is the case, it is actually beneficial to have a buffer between TT and Seismion. Your turntable is going to improve significantly with active isolator.
Yes, it's rigid as in non-suspended design. The stock footer of Kinea uses Oelbach 55138 shock absorbers. I'm more curious about whether using a Revopod in place of the stock footer would be a synergistic match with the Seismion.
The Kinea is currently sitting on a HRS platform. The HRS platform started with a rigid feet underneath (the default stock HRS feet). With the revopods underneath my Kinea sitting on top of HRS (with stock HRS feet), the sound is organic, nuanced, easy on ear, etc. Then I ordered a low frequency feet (uses spring) from HRS to go under my HRS platform. Those low frequency feet made the sound more detailed, airy, but at the same time harsh.
Once, I removed the Revopods and went back to Kinea stock feet sitting on top of HRS platfrom with their low frequency suspended feet, the sound is very organic, no hint of harshness but I lost some details and air.
The above experiment suggests that Revopod worked great in my system as long as the HRS platform beneath it had rigid feet. It wasn't a great match when the HRS platform has suspended/spring feet.
There are two types of isolation, passive and active. All the Oelbach absorbers, Revopod and HRS are passive. In general, it is not very desirable to use multiple passive isolators on top of each other. It is like having a few layers of springs in the suspension of your car. The ride will not be very stable.
To me, the best isolation is a combination of passive and active isolation. Seismion active isolator should be in the middle. You can add one level of passive device above and below it. The final arrangement is always determined by actual listening. More may not be better.
In general turntable is a rotary machine, it generates some vibration regardless of direct or bent drive. A direct coupling between TT and active isolator causes the isolator fighting to cancel the vibration from TT. That reduced its ability to isolate vibration from below. Some buffer between TT and isolator is needed.
The only isolation I have seen the last few years has been the social kind…
This is just an exemplary simulation of the free vibrations after impuls excitation. The vibration amplitudes on the y-axis are normalized, so they don't have any numbers. The intention of this graph is to compare the vibration amplitudes of a passive airspring and our active "Reactio". You can see the maximum amplitudes of our Reactio are about 1/4 of that from the airspring, but more importantly, they are settled much faster.
@Scatterbrain99 what footer / platform did you go with?
( btw which arm are you using on your Kinea? )
( btw which arm are you using on your Kinea? )
We design and optimize our isolators model-based. In this way we can check all parameter influences before building them up. Afterwards we make real measurements, and we can compare simulations and measurements. Typically, they show very good agreements.
All other graphs (transmissibility curves and vibration criteria (VC) curves) that we show in this thread are actually measured results. Measured by ourselves, but also confirmed by third party measurements.
That makes sense, and using simulations is almost always a good engineering thing to do.
I think that @christensenleif@msn.com was asking was if the Y-Axis was RMS velocity (uM/s)?… Or acceleration in “G” or “uG”, or what units were used on the Y-Axis… acceleration, velocity, position?
And I was taught by the professor (in an intolerant fashion) to always have the graph axes labelled, but it is easy on a screen capture to not drag the box far enough to the left to get the labels… so the label missing is something that resonates with me as well.
@greenfish do you mean you have a thin layer of material between the concrete and the flooring?
Typically, at least in the US, these are only a few mm thick, and primarily would serve as a moisture barrier and thermal break over concrete. However, they do also offer protection against footfall echo and dust transfer.
Technically, this is a "floating" floor, but not in the same way as some dance studios or gymnasiums may be. Clarification of your use case, if you know, may help @Seismion
From my experience, your installation is typical, and would be fine for active or passive vibration control products. But, best to hear back from the designers for your peace of mind, based on your details.
Typically, at least in the US, these are only a few mm thick, and primarily would serve as a moisture barrier and thermal break over concrete. However, they do also offer protection against footfall echo and dust transfer.
Technically, this is a "floating" floor, but not in the same way as some dance studios or gymnasiums may be. Clarification of your use case, if you know, may help @Seismion
From my experience, your installation is typical, and would be fine for active or passive vibration control products. But, best to hear back from the designers for your peace of mind, based on your details.
I have vibration absorbing blocks of 10 cm height between concrete and the wooden floor . It is a floating floor.
Yes, under most conditions all axes should be labelled correctly, I totally agree to that. However, in this case (and just in this case), the graph should only serve as an illustrative comparison between the general behavior of active isolators and airspring isolators. While the properties of each system is correctly covered, the model used for calculation is a rather simple linear one. Therefore there is no amplitude dependency.
The y-axis is therefore given as an amplitude (in unit meter), but not further specified. If I simulate an initial disturbance of double strength, then all resulting signals would also be doubled.
What we want to focus on in this graph is rather the ratio between both amplitudes, and here we can see the maximum amplitudes of active isolators is about 1/4 of the ones with airpsprings, and after several seconds only a small fraction of it.
If you are interested in real values, then I would refer to the graphs that I uploaded also here in the thread at some other time. It shows the amplitude spectrum on top of the isolator, which are in the range of 0.1 µm/s, which corresponds to vibration criteria VC-K.
Hello Greenfish,
we tested our isolators on various bases, from stiff metal frames to rather shaky tables, and we did not observe any big influence of the surfaces upon isolation performance.
Beside that, an industry client tested our active isolator on an airspring table. This airspring can be considered as a very soft foundation.This constellation actually worked extremely well, the isolation performance of both subsystems were basically added, and a much higher maximum isolation was observed.
Based on this, I believe also your floating floor should be fine for our isolator.
Greetings,
Marcus
Unfortunately, Seismion is not being sold to US yet. For now, I'm using i) Kinea stock footer on top of HRS with low frequency footer OR 2) Kinea with revopods on top of HRS with rigid footer. I'm using the Primary Control FCL tonearm.
The Seismion products are available to the North American market from Sonic Artistry, Toronto Canada, www.sonicartistry.ca . We have just received our first units with a number more on order. We will be presenting and showing at the Montreal Audio Fest this coming March 22 to 26 in room 2333. We will be using the Seismion 54's under the darTZeel LHC-208 mkII and Merging NADAC + Player at the show.
The Reactio model 54 (500x400mm) $5,650 USD, and the Reactio model 65 (600x500mm) $6,900 USD. That includes shipping door to door, brokerage, importation tax. LOCAL taxes (ie state taxes are by the individual if the state comes after you for them). Canadian Pricing is $7,600 and $9,300 CDN respectively.
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