Munich show 2023 Hifideluxe and MOC .

[caesar]

Your "understanding"? About nine (9) different rooms? But you don't actually know anything because you weren't there?

Hey Ron,
I really do not like German food. But if I went, I probably wouldn't bother with the wilson rooms. Some people like Metallica and some prefer Beethoven. But if I did go, I would love for Morricab or Bonzo take me on a tour. Another problem, is that this show falls during graduation season and wedding season.

 

[bonzo75]

Dear Sir,
Please don't mis-understand my post. I have no problem with Wilson Audio - great family, great company, and a very popular product. And it's silly to argue about taste - only idiots argue about personal taste.

But I am talking about industry structure. The Analytical Sound spent a decade telling us how Magico is the greatest speaker in the world, and Magico had like 2 rooms at the show I am aware of. And in the last decade, there have been a number of newer box speaker companies that have popped up: Steinheim, Gobel, and Borreson - just off the top of my head. No one has been able to differentiate them up to this point, unfortunately. How much of a chance do they have?

Regardless, I hope you enjoy Wilsons for many years. I hope you get a wilson wamm in every room of your house.

Stenheim is fantastic. As is Sigma MAAT, compared to Wilson. Also those who have Devore orangutans and 5k tannoy golds are much better off than Alexandria XLF, Alexia, Sasha and XVX listeners

 

[morricab]

Stenheim is fantastic. As is Sigma MAAT, compared to Wilson. Also those who have Devore orangutans and 5k tannoy golds are much better off than Alexandria XLF, Alexia, Sasha and XVX listeners

The Sigmas I heard at this year’s show (using MAAT drivers…Orchestra 2.9 I think) was great….Stenheim not so great. I think Stenheim has a lot of potential but it is left unrealized with the supporting gear choices. Honestly, Wilson with Nagra sounded better this year…other Wilson setups not so good.

 

[bonzo75]

The Sigmas I heard at this year’s show (using MAAT drivers…Orchestra 2.9 I think) was great….Stenheim not so great. I think Stenheim has a lot of potential but it is left unrealized with the supporting gear choices. Honestly, Wilson with Nagra sounded better this year…other Wilson setups not so good.

I am not referring to show conditions. I have heard all optimised many times. Stenheim did sound good at Munich back in 2016 when I first wrote about them as alternatives to Magico she Wilson. Anamighty uses them with thrax and dartzeel. Audio arts has them with FM acoustics

best I heard were Stenheim ultime 2 set up by Stirling trayle in London with CH, small room. We went through loads of original vinyl issues and couldn’t stop listening to various concerts. I will write more on this system in future

 

[morricab]

I am not referring to show conditions. I have heard all optimised many times. Stenheim did sound good at Munich back in 2016 when I first wrote about them as alternatives to Magico she Wilson. Anamighty uses them with thrax and dartzeel. Audio arts has them with FM acoustics

best I heard were Stenheim ultime 2 set up by Stirling trayle in London with CH, small room. We went through loads of original vinyl issues and couldn’t stop listening to various concerts. I will write more on this system in future

Haven’t heard a setup with CH I could live with…heard many such setups…

 

[bonzo75]

Haven’t heard a setup with CH I could live with…heard many such setups…

I have heard many too and not liked them. This was a very good one. You listen at shows. The same room here had another speaker with the CH not dialled in that sounded awful. I was quite surprised at the change.

 

[morricab]

I have heard many too and not liked them. This was a very good one. You listen at shows. The same room here had another speaker with the CH not dialled in that sounded awful. I was quite surprised at the change.

Heard in shops here in Switzerland. As these are all Swiss brands (Stenheim, DarTZeel, CH, Soulution ) I get to hear them frequently. Stenheim sounded good with tubes…only heard that way once.

 

[orfeo_monteverdi]

Stenheim is fantastic

[please forgive my poor English]

I totally agree (of course, not referring to show conditions either).

Though TBH I only know the small two ways Alumine Two, that I first heard in a show, with my discs (disappointed, because the setup had some 'idiosyncrasies'; but I could glimpse a huge potential). Later on, I heard them on my discs again, in a dedicated room (SMT diffusors, Helmoltz resonators into the walls, Aries Cerat electronics): the result was nothing short but stellar (for the size and price) in terms of immediacy, lifelikeness, "suspension of disbelief" regarding the midrange, and (subjective) linearity. Slightly lean bass though*.
I was then tempted to call them "little horn-like cone speakers for people living in a flat".

* therefore their new floorstander I guess, the Alumine Two.Five​

(it's reassuring to see a horn-lover like you liking those cone-speakers ;-)

Alas, Stenheim is not distributed in my country, so no way to listen to the bigger, floorstander models (Alumine Two.Five, Alumine Three, not to speak about the Reference Two you mentioned).

I think Stenheim has a lot of potential

I seems so, indeed.
My feeling is that, being extremely revealing, it's ways easier to get something overly analytical through them than getting beautiful, natural music. Maybe a bit like Cessaro, about which you once wrote (maybe in PM) that you felt a huge potential, but had not been convinced by any demo yet. Apparently, the revelation happened with the little Cessaro this year, that you seemed to enjoy very much. I would not be surpised at all if it's a bit the same story with Stenheim (at least, it is what frequently attending live concerts suggests me when I faced the Alumine Two's twice, in various conditions).

 

[Argonaut]

I was then tempted to call them "little horn-like cone speakers for people living in a flat".

 

[morricab]

[please forgive my poor English]

I totally agree (of course, not referring to show conditions either).

Though TBH I only know the small two ways Alumine Two, that I first heard in a show, with my discs (disappointed, because the setup had some 'idiosyncrasies'; but I could glimpse a huge potential). Later on, I heard them on my discs again, in a dedicated room (SMT diffusors, Helmoltz resonators into the walls, Aries Cerat electronics): the result was nothing short but stellar (for the size and price) in terms of immediacy, lifelikeness, "suspension of disbelief" regarding the midrange, and (subjective) linearity. Slightly lean bass though*.
I was then tempted to call them "little horn-like cone speakers for people living in a flat".

* therefore their new floorstander I guess, the Alumine Two.Five​

(it's reassuring to see a horn-lover like you liking those cone-speakers ;-)

Alas, Stenheim is not distributed in my country, so no way to listen to the bigger, floorstander models (Alumine Two.Five, Alumine Three, not to speak about the Reference Two you mentioned).


I seems so, indeed.
My feeling is that, being extremely revealing, it's ways easier to get something overly analytical through them than getting beautiful, natural music. Maybe a bit like Cessaro, about which you once wrote (maybe in PM) that you felt a huge potential, but had not been convinced by any demo yet. Apparently, the revelation happened with the little Cessaro this year, that you seemed to enjoy very much. I would not be surpised at all if it's a bit the same story with Stenheim (at least, it is what frequently attending live concerts suggests me when I faced the Alumine Two's twice, in various conditions).

Given the sensitivity of Stenheim speakers and the design of the drivers (pleated paper surrounds) they probably would work better with different electronics than they have been typically demoed with. Either higher power SET or really good push pull tubes (OTLs could be very interesting with these speakers as well) would probably give a more natural sound than Swiss SS amp brigade. That being said, I think the I would take the new Cessaro Opus 1 or Wagner over the Alumine 3 or 5...or save some money and get an Odeon Helix or Semper.

Your experience supports this (Aries Cerat electronics of course would be an excellent choice for speakers like Stenheim, Cessaro and Odeon) that the usual suspects are not the best choices for these speakers. The worst I have heard Stenheim sound is with the Swiss electronics Neukomm...a total horror of artificial sound.

My problem with Stenheim is one of value. They are very expensive and I can think of a few speakers that are similar or less expensive that could offer comparable or better performance. if Alumine 5 was 30k instead of 60K then it would be more competitive. I would take a Cessaro Opus 1 or Wagner, Odeon Semper or Horning Eufrodite Ellipse for less than than the price of the 5s. For less than 20K, I woudl seriously consider the Supravox Zelia with all Alnico drivers
ZELIA Alnico - Pair of open baffle loudspeakers 150W / 96dB – Supravox
I heard the non-Alnico version of this in Munich a few years ago and it was VERY promising and high sensitivity for a non-horn speaker.

Once you get to the 100K level I would take an Aries Cerat Symphonia or Aurora and not consider any of the bigger Stenheims.

 

[bonzo75]

That being said, I think the I would take the new Cessaro Opus 1 or Wagner over the Alumine 3 or 5...or save some money and get an Odeon Helix or Semper.

would be a very bad decision

 

[morricab]

would be a very bad decision

No it would not.

 

[bonzo75]

No it would not.

based on your lack of exposure, true. I haven heard Opus and Wagner outside Munich too. Devore orangutan are much better and cheaper

 

[morricab]

based on your lack of exposure, true. I haven heard Opus and Wagner outside Munich too. Devore orangutan are much better and cheaper

No, they are not.

 

[morricab]

based on your lack of exposure, true. I haven heard Opus and Wagner outside Munich too. Devore orangutan are much better and cheaper

I have plenty of exposure of all the speakers and electronics mentioned.

 

[bonzo75]

I have plenty of exposure of all the speakers and electronics mentioned.

yes at Munich

 

[morricab]

No, lots of places...not just Munich

 

[microstrip]

I have plenty of exposure of all the speakers and electronics mentioned.

Nice. It means you are expressing your preference, but surely not others.

But even so, I am always careful with our general negative opinions and particularly with rankings. The high end is is not an easy hobby - it is extremely personal, and listening to new gear is a lottery. Most of the times it will not turn us, only very occasionally we will find that a particular set of conditions was met and are rewarded with the kind of experience that motivates us to follow on with it.

Their is plenty of excellent gear around and too many factors can influence our biased choice in this individual hobby. IMO we can debate the why's of other people preferences, but should respect their biases - they comes from their audiophile education.

 

[morricab]

Nice. It means you are expressing your preference, but surely not others.

But even so, I am always careful with our general negative opinions and particularly with rankings. The high end is is not an easy hobby - it is extremely personal, and listening to new gear is a lottery. Most of the times it will not turn us, only very occasionally we will find that a particular set of conditions was met and are rewarded with the kind of experience that motivates us to follow on with it.

Their is plenty of excellent gear around and too many factors can influence our biased choice in this individual hobby. IMO we can debate the why's of other people preferences, but should respect their biases - they comes from their audiophile education.

There is plenty of poor gear masquerading as high end because of fancy cases and high prices.

 

[microstrip]

There is plenty of poor gear masquerading as high end because of fancy cases and high prices.

If you think so please identify it and explain why you objectively or subjectively feel so. The frontier between fancy cases and solid built, well though cases with sound quality objectives is not clear. High prices should surely deliver top performance, but in this hobby one man's meat is another man's poison. Unless we have access to such gear there is little that can done with good assurance.