Can digital get to vinyl sound and at what price?

[mtemur]

The Philips format used the 14bit 50khz standard.

And no oversampling I assume.

 

[mtemur]

Unfixable new problems? Which ones?

Limiting frequency response to 20.5Khz, ringing caused by oversampling, quantization errors, requirement of digital filter, requirement of eight-to-fourteen modulation (EFM) coding, requirement of cross-interleaved-reed-solomon-coding (CIRC). More?

 

[Al M.]

Limiting frequency response to 20.5Khz, ringing caused by oversampling, quantization errors, requirement of digital filter, requirement of eight-to-fourteen modulation (EFM) coding, requirement of cross-interleaved-reed-solomon-coding (CIRC). More?

Frequency response is chosen according to human hearing. Just like we cannot see flowers like bees can, which have UV vision, we cannot hear above 20 kHz (and that is mostly just for new-born babies, HF hearing goes downhill from there). So I don't see the problem.

With today's better implementations of the technology, ringing is not a problem in CD playback (no audible transient artifacts). Nor are any of the other things you mention.

Perhaps your digital is lacking, my very optimized CD playback is just fine.

 

[allvinyl]

LOL WRONG!!!!!!!

All in good humor.

WHO INVENTED THE INTERNET?​

No one person invented the internet. When networking technology was first developed, a number of scientists and engineers brought their research together to create the ARPANET. Later, other inventors’ creations paved the way for the web as we know it today.

But this guy takes all the credit for it.


View attachment 113647



View attachment 113646

Correct-a-mundo!! I was using ARPANET to communicate with colleagues at the various connected nat'l and internat'l laboratories during my employment at Fermilab early '84 through late '87.

 

[microstrip]

Limiting frequency response to 20.5Khz, ringing caused by oversampling, quantization errors, requirement of digital filter, requirement of eight-to-fourteen modulation (EFM) coding, requirement of cross-interleaved-reed-solomon-coding (CIRC). More?

CD is mainly a distribution format. If we forget the early days of digital all these issues are not a problem any more - today some people even prefer R2R DACs without any digital filtering and smooth, low slope analog filtering.

The pit recording and correction processes were since long shown and proved to be 100% efficient in most CDs - no one complains about data integrity any more since the 90's.

I find that some hi-rez sounds "better" than CD - but this does not prove any thing, I also prefer digital to analog most of the time.

 

[mtemur]

With today's better implementations of the technology, ringing is not a problem in CD playback (no audible transient artifacts). Nor are any of the other things you mention.

It's not the "Ringing" that I'm talking about here which depends on the quality of the product and implementation and can be pop up as overshoot on a square wave test signal. The "Ringing" that I'm talking about here and is talked about Cd is pre ringing and post ringing due to oversampling and digital filtering. Because it's a product of oversampling and digital filtering it exists on both high and low quality Cd players.

 

[mtemur]

Perhaps your digital is lacking, my very optimized CD playback is just fine.

I understand your love for physical disc playback especially with Cd. I do like 44.1K 16bit Cd sound more than modern dac implementations. Not always but usually I do. But I also know it's drawbacks.

I listened many many hours CEC TL0 and Concert Fidelity tubed multibit dac over the years. For me it's the top of Cd playback. I heard Kondo dac too maybe it would be a better match for CEC TL0 but Concert Fidelity is good enough IMHO. Good but vinyl playback is better to my ears.

 

[dcathro]

CD is mainly a distribution format. If we forget the early days of digital all these issues are not a problem any more - today some people even prefer R2R DACs without any digital filtering and smooth, low slope analog filtering.

That would be me, and in my opinion, the more you do to digital (the harder you try in the digital realm) the worse it sounds.

I have found that the early AAD CDs sound best.

 

[PYP]

Cd came out as digital to eliminate those problems in the first place and eliminate other problems that vinyl medium has by the expense of introducing unfixable new problems.

Like, um, this thread?

 

[bonzo75]

I understand your love with physical disc playback especially with Cd. I do like 44.1K 16bit Cd sound more than modern dac implementations. Not always but usually I do. But I also know it's drawbacks.

I listened many many hours CEC TL0 and Concert Fidelity tubed multibit dac over the years. For me it's the top of Cd playback. I heard Kondo dac too maybe it would be a better match for CEC TL0 but Concert Fidelity is good enough IMHO. Good but vinyl playback is better to my ears.

i have heard the CEC TLO in a Kondo Dac twice next to analog, and in a Weiss Dac. Did nothing for me.

 

[mtemur]

CD is mainly a distribution format. If we forget the early days of digital all these issues are not a problem any more - today some people even prefer R2R DACs without any digital filtering and smooth, low slope analog filtering.

Who said that those problems are solved other than you? Do we simply take your word and convert to Cd? Did they remove EFM, CIRC from Redbook format? Are you aware that R2R Dac technology you're referring to as a today's preferred solution basically an opened version of first multibit dacs from the inception of Cd? ...Which (multibit) is replaced by delta-sigma dacs thinking it's better. How is it possible solving early days of digital issues if solution is turning back to beginning?

 

[mtemur]

Like, um, this thread?

This thread is the least important problem Cd caused.

 

[Al M.]

I understand your love for physical disc playback especially with Cd. I do like 44.1K 16bit Cd sound more than modern dac implementations. Not always but usually I do. But I also know it's drawbacks.

I listened many many hours CEC TL0 and Concert Fidelity tubed multibit dac over the years. For me it's the top of Cd playback. I heard Kondo dac too maybe it would be a better match for CEC TL0 but Concert Fidelity is good enough IMHO. Good but vinyl playback is better to my ears.

Sure. You might change your mind if you would hear my CD playback. Or not. Who knows.

 

[bonzo75]

Sure. You might change your mind if you would hear my CD playback. Or not. Who knows.

make a video

 

[Al M.]

make a video

LOL

 

[SoundMann]

Hi George, I'm genuinely interested in understanding your persepctive. Could you expand on what you think ultimately holds digital audio back, or cite some references that I could read up on?

(I used to own a Pacific Microsonics Model Two, and recall Keith Johnson saying that vinyl had a dynamic range of 120dB, IIRC.)

Thanks.

Mani.

Limited resolution, a severe lack of linearity, endless timing issues, a lack of dynamic range of scale and a huge amount of high frequency distortion to start with.

 

[microstrip]

Who said that those problems are solved other than you?

The objective points were all proved. Subjective are just opinions.

Do we simply take your word and convert to Cd? Did they remove EFM, CIRC from Redbook format?

No. But they perform as expected and we get bit exact data from CDs.

Are you aware that R2R Dac technology you're referring to as a today's preferred solution basically an opened version of first multibit dacs from the inception of Cd? ...Which (multibit) is replaced by delta-sigma dacs thinking it's better. How is it possible solving early days of digital issues if solution is turning back to beginning?

You are misreading my post and are writing things I did not say. I just gave common examples - anyone reading my signature sees my current preference is the SOTA ring DAC.

 

[SoundMann]

I appreciate if you share some details about optical analog disc format regarding those questions.

Laserdisc originally had an fm analog track. But it did not cover the whole audible spectrum.

I am not willing to reveal too many design secrets at this time as most of the design ideas are still theoretical.

It has been years since I have even thought on it, and I have no idea where I put my notes.

 

[SoundMann]

And no oversampling I assume.

I can't remember if it did or not.

 

[PeterA]

make a video

and fairies wear boots.