Todd's AG Trio G3 System -- it's about time

[Maril555]

If you are cohesion sensitive and also listen to the sound more often as a whole then a sudden noticeable uncharacteristic shift in the timbre of instruments in transition from the bass or mid bass or up to the mids essentially highlights that the whole sound doesn’t come together as essentially true or have rightness. If there is a disconnect then the whole thing comes across as disparate and artificial (or not natural)… so typically say going from SET in the mids down to SS in the lower mid bass or bass if there is an uncharacteristic shift in presentation we’re there might be elasticity and flow up higher and it’s all suddenly in relationship too taut or dry or emphatic it’s like staring at a tonally more all over the place sedimentary rock face rather than at a more seamless igneous one.

I guess if someone dominantly listens to sound analytically or to music that is primarily artificial it’s not an issue because you can still be drawn to admire two (seemingly disparate) qualities occurring in a disconnected soundfield but an out of character clash within the timbre of individual acoustic instruments creates a disconnect that jars and holds you out from the presentation then coming together as natural, connected or believable.

Very eloquently put. That is exactly right. The effect of listening to cohesive system is easily measurable as it changes one’s listening habits- instead of picking out recordings that sound more acceptable on a given system, I can listen to absolutely anything, even objectively poor recording without having a subconscious impulse to change it mid-album.
similarly, listening sessions are much longe. Our hearing is significantly more sensitive, than vision, allowing for such “unmeasurable“ discrimination.

 

[the sound of Tao]

Very eloquently put. That is exactly right. The effect of listening to cohesive system is easily measurable as it changes one’s listening habits- instead of picking out recordings that sound more acceptable on a given system, I can listen to absolutely anything, even objectively poor recording without having a subconscious impulse to change it mid-album.
similarly, listening sessions are much longe. Our hearing is significantly more sensitive, than vision, allowing for such “unmeasurable“ discrimination.

Nice. That other aspect of cohesion keeping continuity is a great point. I also find cohesiveness does keep you seated more continuously in the flow. Passive first order two way really pulls this continuous connection trick off for me… more complex active systems that fragment the signal more (while they have certain specific gains) ultimately are harder to get things to gel back into a cohesive seamless whole in our perception and for things to seem more familiarly of a piece. Sounds being uncharacteristically fragmented and separate makes our focus of perception dart around more to try and make sense of the field of sounds and so our brains have to work much harder to pull it back into something familiar and a better match to our recall of the sounds of natural acoustic instruments.

 

[LL21]

Very eloquently put. That is exactly right. The effect of listening to cohesive system is easily measurable as it changes one’s listening habits- instead of picking out recordings that sound more acceptable on a given system, I can listen to absolutely anything, even objectively poor recording without having a subconscious impulse to change it mid-album.
similarly, listening sessions are much longe. Our hearing is significantly more sensitive, than vision, allowing for such “unmeasurable“ discrimination.

Agree. I imagine some of us are more or less sensitive to these things...but in the end, I do find that the minute I hit that balance, then all the music comes out and it becomes a voyage of discovery of all music and not just certain kinds of music nor certain kinds of sounds/effects.

Ultimately, most of know what elements could be improved...otherwise, where would the drive for upgrade come from?...but it is nice that the 'balance' is there in the system so that the upgrade becomes a fun thing to do rather than a need to fix something that is wrong in the system.

 

[Maril555]

Agree. I imagine some of us are more or less sensitive to these things...but in the end, I do find that the minute I hit that balance, then all the music comes out and it becomes a voyage of discovery of all music and not just certain kinds of music nor certain kinds of sounds/effects.

Ultimately, most of know what elements could be improved...otherwise, where would the drive for upgrade come from?...but it is nice that the 'balance' is there in the system so that the upgrade becomes a fun thing to do rather than a need to fix something that is wrong in the system.

I have also noticed, that after a system achieves this “balanced, natural” state, even a small change, that one can consider to be an upgrade, can actually unbalance the system.
I have recently substituted my DIY $200-300 power cable for $3500 one and had to take it out just after a few days.

 

[LL21]

I have also noticed, that after a system achieves this “balanced, natural” state, even a small change, that one can consider to be an upgrade, can actually unbalance the system.
I have recently substituted my DIY $200-300 power cable for $3500 one and had to take it out just after a few days.

BIG TIME! Absolutely. And of course the frustrating part is that sometimes, you get an 'upgrade' in one spectrum of the overall sound, but it does cause an imbalance overall...so naturally you either give up that selective improvement to keep balance...or you have to go through and fight to rebalance in order to keep it.

 

[Hear Here]

I have also noticed, that after a system achieves this “balanced, natural” state, even a small change, that one can consider to be an upgrade, can actually unbalance the system.
I have recently substituted my DIY $200-300 power cable for $3500 one and had to take it out just after a few days.

Yes, although I've never had such modestly priced amps powering my AGs, but I did buy or borrow a dozen amps after I decided I should switch from SETs to ss amps. Certainly it wasn't the most costly that sounded the best match for the AGs but one that has offered much more enjoyable and longer listening sessions since I bought it. No harshness and no mushiness, just the excitement and goosebunp factor that AGs offer in spades if matched carefully with a suitable amp.

 

[Maril555]

Yes, although I've never had such modestly priced amps powering my AGs, but I did buy or borrow a dozen amps after I decided I should switch from SETs to ss amps. Certainly it wasn't the most costly that sounded the best match for the AGs but one that has offered much more enjoyable and longer listening sessions since I bought it. No harshness and no mushiness, just the excitement and goosebunp factor that AGs offer in spades if matched carefully with a suitable amp.

I was referring to power cables (to phono stage) and not the power amps

 

[Hear Here]

I was referring to power cables (to phono stage) and not the power amps

Perhaps the same applies to power amps - the most costly solution may well not be the best. I've found this with cables too, though not interconnects as I use none, but speaker cables don't need to be the most costly either, despite what the dealer may claim you need to get the best out of a system!

 

[sbnx]

Hello @Uwiik

Do you have an update on your Trios? You were pretty busy with them and we are curious if you ordered a pair of speakers?

 

[Elliot G.]

Regardless, since I love spending other people's money, I think Sbnx should hire both Trayle and Jim Smith and learn as much as possible from each of these gentlemen.

Both of these gentleman are really good and talented and many if not most would benefit from their expertise however the reason is that most buy the gear and want to play with it rather than optimise the gear and the room .
IMO many audiophiles enjoy listening to the differences in gear rather than trying to make it all work to its optimum. I can only assume the reasons for this but when I was young it was my job to test the gear so that the business I represented would make a good decision to sell or not to sell it. This process taught me a lot about how different components changed the sound however it burned me out and I wanted to stop listening after a while as I was only listening for flaws and missed my music.
Audio , particularly great audio , requires lots of effort and problem solving to maximize the performance in any given space. The space, the set up and the gear will define when worked with the overall result. This is different in a family room versus a dedicated room versus a purpose built dedicated room etc. The skill and perfection that is applied does detemine the end result. There are no shortcuts only compromises.
I really enjoy knowing how hard some people work in order to get the result and how little others will do and believe they know what is possible.
Mike L. , Todd and others I send my respect and I honor thei dedication it is uncommon sadly.

 

[sbnx]

Hello Everyone. I realized had not posted any real details on the spacehorn other than the journey of integrating it. I recoreded two videos. One relates to the physical details of the spacehorn and attemps to answer questions related to how many one might need. The second video goes over some of the DSP software. I know these are a little long but there is a lot to go over. Let me know if you have any questions.

 

[sbnx]

This is the video that goes over the software.

 

[sbnx]

I thought I would do a follow up post on the idea of using a shelf filter that I mentioned in the video. I would also like to point out a few things related to the ouput of the spacehorn. I will break this into two posts with this one related to what happens if the spacehorn is positioned in corner vs out into the room.

My spacehorns are pulled very far into the room (about 13'). In this situation there is no "boundary support" for the bass. Boundary support in this case means that it is not exciting all of the room modes. With the woofers pulled this far in I am getting more of a free field response out of them. So, I see the lower cutoff frequency of the horn of 35Hz and then a smooth but steep roll off of the bass. By the time we get to 20Hz the output is down 24dB. So in this situation I don't consider there is much usable bass output below 30Hz.

If you are going to put the spacehorns in the front corners of the room then you will be exciting all of the room modes. This is going to "boost" the bass output below 30Hz. For example, if your room is 26X20 then the first lenght mode is about 22Hz and the first width mode is about 28Hz. You can very likely use this to adjust the spacehorns to give reasonably flat bass down to 20Hz. When I first was exploring where to put the spacehorns I took a measurement with the spacehorn in the front of the room. Here is the response with the spacehorn in the front corner.


There are a few observations to make. First, the bass is a little "lumpy". There are broad dips at 45Hz and 65Hz. Second, the bass has a gently falling response dropping about 10dB from 75Hz to 20Hz. And most importantly for the discussion here there is a flat output down to about 22Hz. It would be relatively easy to DSP the upper bass above 75Hz down a few dB to achieve a little flatter overall response. But not much could be done about the two broad dips.

My room is 28X22 so the first two room modes are about 20 and 25Hz. Due to the construction of the room I have a large angled absorber in the front of the room. So the back of the spacehorn is really about 2.5' from the drywall that is behind the absorber. If I was in the actual corner there would have been more output in the 20-30Hz region.

I hope all of this made sense.

 

[sbnx]

I did not opt to put the speakers in the front of the room as the bass was too lumpy for me and there were a few other acoustic issues related to the main trio response in the front. Instead I have the speaker pulled very far into the room (about 13'). Here is the response of the spacehorn as it stands.




The bottom curve represents the spacehorn with no DSP applied. The top curve is after I played with the high-shelf filter option. Ignore the vertical scale as the value is not calibrated. All that matters for this is the shape and the relative difference between the two curves.

A few things to note. First is the cut-off frequency of 35Hz where the output starts dropping at about 24dB/Oct. (The "wiggles" we are seeing down at 20-25Hz are an artifact of the output being so low in level.) Again, this is what to expect without any boundary reinforcement. probably not many people will pull the horns this far from the wall.

I mentioned in the video that we could use a shelf filter to pull down the output above a certain level to get the bass flat. if you get into the actual DSP of the spacehorn (not the GUI) then it does have both low and high shelf filters. You can choose the frequency you want to start the shelf, the Q and the Gain. If you are not familiar with shelf filters then google will return links with lots of info on them.

I played with the various settings and what is pictured above is about the best I could get. I set the frequency to 35Hz and the gain to -9dB. The Q is at 15 (which is pretty high). With these settings it really raised the bass output from 35 to 55Hz. (Really, it lowered everything above this) You can see the levels above about 53Hz are very well matched. In the graph I placed the cursor at 30Hz. You can see that the level at 30Hz is about the same as up higher at 70-90Hz. So we have extended the bass output flat to 30Hz. It is -3dB at about 27Hz.

So I got flat bass down to 30Hz. What is needed to do this and could it be better? The basline curve (without DSP) is with the volume on the spacehorn set at -9.0. Recall that the spacehorn has a volume setting that ranges from -12 to +12. The iTron amp also has switches that let us adjust the overall gain of the 3 horns. i have the -3 and -6 switches engages meaning that the Trio is down by 9 dB and I use the preamp volume to get the level back up. I have the Spacehorn volume set at -9 to match the trios. What I did with the shelf filter is give it a gain of -9 so I simply turned the spacehorn up to 0. If I wanted to go into positive gain on the spacehorn I could turn it up another 6 or even 9. and I could have extended the bass output further into the lower 20's. I am not sure what this would have sounded like. If I start getting worried about the hump that is being created at 35Hz I could use a PEQ to pull that down.

Now, if I was not using the iTron amp and instead using some other amplifier -- Viva or Dartzeel or whatever. Then I don't have those nifty little switches and so the spacehorn would be at about 0 to match the volume level of the trio. One could still do the shelf filter but they would not have anywhere near the same headroom as with the iTron. In order to gain this headroom one would need to add a second and/or thrid spacehorn to the mix.

Or the final option. Add another/different subwoofer to cover the range from 35Hz down to however low you want to go. I believe that just any subwoofer is not going to work here. The horn loaded bass is very fast. It is going to have to be something special to integrate at the same level of transparency and speed.

 

[sbnx]

To summarize: How to get flat bass to 20Hz from Spacehorns

1. Stick them in the front corners and use the room modes to support the bass. Use positioning and DSP to flatten out the frequency response.
2. If you have the iTron you can turn the gain of the amp down to allow more headroom in the spacehorn. Then use the DSP to extend the bass output as above. (Shelf filter etc.)
3. If you are using an amplifier other than iTron then purchase multiple spacehorns to give sufficient headroom to flatten the bass to 20Hz
4. Purchase a very high quality 3rd party subwoofer to cover the range from 35Hz down to below 20Hz and integrate this.

 

[Don Reid]

I am quite envious of the various forum members who have the Trios. I have no doubt that they sound marvelous. But I am a curious guy, and I am curious if anyone has tried combining the upper three horns of the Trio system with a true horn woofer such as the Aries Cerat Erevus or Living Voice Vox Elysian. In my half century of experience I find that horn bass is the icing on the cake.

 

[sbnx]

The spacehorn that one can get with the trios is horn loaded.

 

[Tam Lin]

Don, I'm also a curious guy but I looked at the specs for the Trio and the two horns you mentioned. I can't find the
Erevus on the Aries Cerat web site. Perhaps it is no longer made. The Living Voice Vox Elysian has a band width of 25 to 70 Hz which doesn't line up with the Trios 100 Hz woofer crossover point. Maybe that's the reason Trio owners haven't tried them.

 

[Don Reid]

The spacehorn that one can get with the trios is horn loaded.

Part of the Spacehorn's range is horn loaded, but the deep bass is not. Years ago when I visited Jim, Smith at his home near Atlanta I asked him how such a small horn could play deep bass. He replied, "lots of equalization."
Regarding the Living Voice Vox Elysian's limited upper useful range and the mismatch with the Trios that is my bad. I just didn't think it through.
The Aries Cerat Erevus true bass horn is made to accompany the Aries Cerat Contendo II horn speakers which require a crossover at 100 or 110 Hz. I agree the Everus is not on Aries Cerat's website. For that matter neither is the Contendo II horn speakers. It was only by doing a Google Search on Aries Cerat Contendo II speakers and reading numerous websites that I learned about the Everus subwoofers. List price of the Everus is $105,000.00.

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

To summarize: How to get flat bass to 20Hz from Spacehorns

1. Stick them in the front corners and use the room modes to support the bass. Use positioning and DSP to flatten out the frequency response.
2. If you have the iTron you can turn the gain of the amp down to allow more headroom in the spacehorn. Then use the DSP to extend the bass output as above. (Shelf filter etc.)
3. If you are using an amplifier other than iTron then purchase multiple spacehorns to give sufficient headroom to flatten the bass to 20Hz
4. Purchase a very high quality 3rd party subwoofer to cover the range from 35Hz down to below 20Hz and integrate this.

here I´d recommend the Devor series from NNNN.no in Norway....
they´re hornloaded all the way down
most haven´t got a clue to how good a proper hornsub can complete a system

Devor 23 - NNNN

nnnn.no