Can digital get to vinyl sound and at what price?

[Al M.]

I think his message is that he already has more than enough great, and great sounding, music to listen to in his lifetime. Some people might not want to set up another system — I know I don’t.

I don’t want to either. There is no way in hell that I'll ever set up a turntable in my system. I enjoy vinyl in friends' systems, that's enough for me.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Not here ,

You cant really be serious about Audio /Music reproduction and have a single format. Digital only or analog only is missing the point , too many great recordings on both sides to leave anything on the Table ..

I think it's a big mistake to characterize any musical preference as something not serious. 'less serious' or 'more serious' is fair game. and not so binary. whether it's genre or format or listening location or method of listening. if people are smitten with listening to YouTube videos on their laptop speakers as their focus, and it scratches their musical itch completely. then where is the problem? who can say that is not serious? for that person?

we can and do debate how that experience might compare to other approaches. but unless that YouTube laptop listener claims their approach is superior, why bother to denigrate it? we just do our own thing until that person asks what we think. now we proceed to make our case. and digital only, streaming only, files only, silver discs only......enjoy!

there are many versions of the audiophile hobby. who is the audiophile God deciding on legitimacy?

just like the objectivist seeing themselves as self appointed fixer for all things subjective, the audiophile snob is just a different version of that.

Sonically Analog cleans Digital clock IMO, but no way i would be analog only and pass on great Digital music ..!

Not even up for consideration ..!

but when and why do we go there? pontification is rarely helpful. but for a millisecond it does feel good to take the shot.

it is so easy to go to the negative, or justify own own path as righteous. it's our natural first reaction. fine. just don't hit the 'post reply' button. instead.....think about what we would say if we were face to face with that other person. 'in-person' most normal human beings will take a moment to think about it, and they would find some sort of common ground.

 

[Kingrex]

instead.....think about what we would say if we were face to face with that other person. 'in-person' most normal human beings will take a moment to think about it, and they would find some sort of common ground

Hmmm. I must not be normal. I don't have an in person filter either.

 

[Audiofile]

I just disagree with the basic concept of this thread , that vinyl is definitely better than digital and that somehow one day digital will be as good If you spend a million dollars on a DAC/ streamer .
It's not an axiom that vinyl is better.
To me digital is more accurate , less flawed technically and the best current format .
Besides what is exactly "vinyl sound "?

 

[Gregm]

If I had collected my favorite vinyl for music recorded in the 50s and 60s (say, jazz and classical), for example, I wouldn't ditch it. It is unlikely one can get remastered digital versions (from the actual master tape) of a lot of those precious records. I have found some decent remastered 50s jazz (on Qobuz,) but not many.

(My emphasis).
My case exactly!
I kept those vinyls for that reason, and the hardware to play it. The beautiful covers, notes, and the 'rite of playing the LP' are an added bonus. As is the sound BTW...

Perhaps this question resonates more usefully amongst those who are hardcore audiophiles (and love music) and less so amongst the musicphiles (who also have an audio addiction)?

 

[Joe Whip]

No, my point is that you can be serious about music and audio reproduction and be digital only. I have vinyl and never play it yet am serious about my music and listening.

 

[Al M.]

The question is also, how much music can you even listen to? You have 5,000 LPs, 3,000 CDs, terabytes of downloads, and you claim you have listened to it all and not just that, you claim to know all of that music very well, from a single listen? And yes, only then can you call yourself a "true music lover"?

C'mon. Get real.

 

[Another Johnson]

I listen as my primary activity (not background music) about 100 hours a month. I can’t speak for others, but Qobuz and Prime are startlingly good here in my main system. So I take in spurts. If I want to jump up and flip vinyl every 20 minutes, I may play 6 or 7 records one evening. If I want to relax without interruption, I may cue up 4 or 5 albums from Qobuz or Prime. If I’m curious about how the CD or SACD sounds, or if I want to hear something that’s not available from a service, I’ll play silver disks. If I really want to study a performance, I’ll stream or spin silver disks in repeat mode.

It’s all good. Frankly, I feel sorry for the folks whose systems are only tweaked for one format. Instead of generating entropy by arguing about vinyl vs streaming, I’d recommend putting your energy into fixing the one that is underachieving at your house.

 

[Audiohertz2]

I just disagree with the basic concept of this thread , that vinyl is definitely better than digital and that somehow one day digital will be as good If you spend a million dollars on a DAC/ streamer .
It's not an axiom that vinyl is better.
To me digital is more accurate , less flawed technically and the best current format .
Besides what is exactly "vinyl sound "?

I do agree if you cant hear it why bother

 

[Audiohertz2]

The question is also, how much music can you even listen to? You have 5,000 LPs, 3,000 CDs, terabytes of downloads, and you claim you have listened to it all and not just that, you claim to know all of that music very well, from a single listen? And yes, only then can you call yourself a "true music lover"?

C'mon. Get real.

No you miss the point totally ...!

You need analog to hear original analog recordings natively , you need digital to hear hi def digital natively same for CD’s where you need a transport .

If this is not your goal or desire , then its academic really ..


Regards

 

[Al M.]

No you miss the point totally ...!

You need analog to hear original analog recordings natively , you need digital to hear hi def digital natively same for CD’s where you need a transport .

If this is not your goal or desire , then its academic really ..


Regards

Can you get any more dogmatic with your posts?

Sorry that I so gravely disappoint you for failing your precious audiophile test.

(Shrug)

 

[Audiohertz2]

Can you get any more dogmatic with your posts?

Sorry that I so gravely disappoint you for failing your precious audiophile test.

(Shrug)

As i you , apologies , But Dogmatic ! I see the irony , good one ..


Regards

 

[Al M.]

I do agree if you cant hear it why bother

Well, perhaps you could come off your high horse and actually try to educate us. So what is exactly "vinyl sound"?

(I am very familiar with vinyl playback, but I'd like to hear your take on it.)

 

[Audiohertz2]

Let me try again Al as succinctly as my limited vocabulary allows

If you cant hear what vinyl-philes are on about and believe Digital to be superior so be it ..

No offense taken by those saying Digital or the hi-way , i get it ..

My point once more , is that some of “us” like to reproduce audio in their native format its not a superiority complex , its what we prefer to do , myself in particular i want to hear a 1963 recording of anything being dragged along on the best nail pointing cart i can find as if it was 1963. I wont buy a vinyl recording of a 2024 digital only release , but if i wanted to , i could and would , to “enjoy “ the compare Native vs Vinyl EQ ..

IMO Original well done vinyl cant be reproduced faithfully by Digital and Digital to Vinyl is not the same as the original, but sometimes does sound more natural than the digital file ..

Enjoy its all free after purchase


Regards

 

[PYP]

I just disagree with the basic concept of this thread , that vinyl is definitely better than digital and that somehow one day digital will be as good If you spend a million dollars on a DAC/ streamer .
It's not an axiom that vinyl is better.
To me digital is more accurate , less flawed technically and the best current format .
Besides what is exactly "vinyl sound "?

Here is an interesting take from a manufacturer of digital equipment for both pro and audiophile markets (March 2022):

https://www.grimmaudio.com/blogs/vinyl-versus-digital/ worth reading the entire piece by Eelco Grimm and only takes a few minutes. Here is a teaser (added emphasis):

"The Dutch online magazine Alpha Audio did an unusual live stream on Sunday Feb 27th. In collaboration with Artone Studio in Haarlem, a live recording was made of singer songwriter Tim Knol, running both a completely analog (vinyl!) recording chain and a completely digital recording chain in parallel. ...

"Their verdict was that the analog chain sounded more similar to the original sound (the direct microphone lines) than the digital chain.

I can imagine that this was true, so the conclusion can be that this digital chain was not as transparent as the analog chain. That means there is still room for improvement in the digital path – work to do for us. But at the same time there is a need for some nuances." [NOTE: the nuances are indeed important to the conclusion.]

The "us" above refers to Grimm Audio. For me, the moral of the story is to keep an open mind if you want to design and manufacturer great audio equipment.

 

[Audiofile]

Here is an interesting take from a manufacturer of digital equipment for both pro and audiophile markets (March 2022):

https://www.grimmaudio.com/blogs/vinyl-versus-digital/ worth reading the entire piece by Eelco Grimm and only takes a few minutes. Here is a teaser (added emphasis):

"The Dutch online magazine Alpha Audio did an unusual live stream on Sunday Feb 27th. In collaboration with Artone Studio in Haarlem, a live recording was made of singer songwriter Tim Knol, running both a completely analog (vinyl!) recording chain and a completely digital recording chain in parallel. ...

"Their verdict was that the analog chain sounded more similar to the original sound (the direct microphone lines) than the digital chain.

I can imagine that this was true, so the conclusion can be that this digital chain was not as transparent as the analog chain. That means there is still room for improvement in the digital path – work to do for us. But at the same time there is a need for some nuances." [NOTE: the nuances are indeed important to the conclusion.]

The "us" above refers to Grimm Audio. For me, the moral of the story is to keep an open mind if you want to design and manufacturer great audio equipment.

There are pros that claim the exact opposite
That digital is the closest to the original recording .
Everyone hears differently and have different preferences

 

[Al M.]

Let me try again Al as succinctly as my limited vocabulary allows

If you cant hear what vinyl-philes are on about and believe Digital to be superior so be it ..

Where did I say that digital is superior? And no, you still did not answer our question.

So what are vinyl-philes on about?

 

[PYP]

There are pros that claim the exact opposite
That digital is the closest to the original recording .
Everyone hears differently and have different preferences

agreed. And there is no information about the composition of the audience. But I think his conclusion, as a designer/manufacturer, is correct: Give this audience what it wants. But do it digitally. That is, improve digital playback.

I'm looking forward to an in-home demo of their MU2, which is an integrated comprising server/streamer/DDC/DAC/analog preamp. I believe this is their "answer" to the "work for us to do."

 

[hopkins]

I am not sure this has been mentioned before, but one of the attractions of vinyl, over digital, is the much greater availability of recordings from the 1950s and 1960s in mono.

A couple examples that I recently came across

- Sonny Rollins - Way out West. There is only one CD version - from Japan - in Mono: https://www.discogs.com/master/174528-Sonny-Rollins-Way-Out-West
- Duke Ellington - Back to Back. There are no CD versions in mono.

There are obviously many more examples.

 

[PYP]

@Audiofile and, as mentioned, the nuances matter. What the audience heard, is not what a vinyl lover can hear at home.

From the blog piece:

"First of all, no one outside a mastering studio will ever hear the quality of the lacquer. In the process of vinyl production (when pressing >10000 copies of an album), the lacquer is first converted to an intermediate negative copy, from which a ‘father’ is copied, from which various ‘mothers’ are copied, from which stampers are then made that are used in the actual pressing of the vinyl (which is also a copying process). This means there are four mechanical copies between the lacquer and the vinyl record you have at home, and with every copy some details get lost and noise is added.

Second, it is extremely rare for a vinyl record to be cut directly from the microphone feed."