Hi-Fi is NOT a subjective hobby.

bonzo75 · Apr 17, 2024

morricab said:
Clearly there was an evolution of having higher pitched instruments on the left, the lower toned instruments on the right and horns and percussion in the back.

This is one way, often violins, cellos and double bass can be mixed up and violins can be on both left and right. It's called the antiphonal arrangement.

Some have speculated that conductors who were more conscious of the recording once stereo era started, broke from the antiphonal to the violins on the left and lower toned instruments on the right.

But today at concerts I see both. Especially a lot of Beethoven is antiphonal.

morricab · Apr 17, 2024

bonzo75 said:
This is one way, often violins, cellos and double bass can be mixed up and violins can be on both left and right. It's called the antiphonal arrangement.

Some have speculated that conductors who were more conscious of the recording once stereo era started, broke from the antiphonal to the violins on the left and lower toned instruments on the right.

But today at concerts I see both. Especially a lot of Beethoven is antiphonal.

I have never been to a concert with such an arrangement. I have seen some chamber music with a "non-standard" arrangement but not an orchestra.

bonzo75 · Apr 17, 2024

morricab said:
I have never been to a concert with such an arrangement. I have seen some chamber music with a "non-standard" arrangement but not an orchestra.

I have seen many. I also posted many years ago a picture of Haitink conducting that with the LSO and mentioned that a few times.

you can do a basic google of "antiphonal violins" and see what comes up..

In fact here is one google result "the detail of the instruments comes through and it helps that Klemperer, like many of the “Old School” divides his first and second violins, left and right to get the antiphonal sound that Beethoven wanted."

That said it is not only B. Recently I saw one for Schubert.

All violins on the left is mostly a stereo recording evolution, though some composers may or may not have laid it out that way. Maybe that's why Klemperer's monos are fine compared to his stereos.

tima · Apr 17, 2024

morricab said:
You don't think the arrangement of the instruments in an orchestra is important to the composer? Clearly there was an evolution of having higher pitched instruments on the left, the lower toned instruments on the right and horns and percussion in the back. I would be surprised if this arrangement and the mental image it creates, when listening both live and on recordings, is not being considered by the composer and integrated into their vision of the sound that the audience hears.

Only if the composer is the conductor. It is the conductor who determines the orchestra layout. There is a typical layout but it is not a set piece. Of course there are exceptions to this -- Bartok wanted the percussion grouped around the piano in his First Piano Concerto, but not for purposes of creating an image in the audience's head. He did it to place emphasis on the piano as a percussion instrument. Imaging is not much of a factor in a live performance as most audiences listen with their eyes open. And orchestra arrangement is not the same in importance as the score directives.

bonzo75 · Apr 17, 2024

Sizes of the orchestra vary as well, for the same piece, depending on the conductor.

tima · Apr 17, 2024

hopkins said:
I am not a specialist of classical music, but if I think of this in relation to "big band jazz", and someone like Ellington, I would be curious to learn what "scholars" have to say about this. My initial thought is that the layout of the various instruments may not have changed much, and the primary consideration was the relative loudness of each section and instrument (at least initially when a single microphone was being used).

Before relative loudness, my (limited) understanding of jazz bands finds the primary instrumentalist, if there is one, in the center of the group. And he is there not only because he may be featured but because he is typically the conductor or at least is the leader who sets the timing. What I know of Ellington typically has his band around him in the center.

edit:

I'm thinking the arrangement is not for creating an image.

Geoffkait · Apr 17, 2024

Adding to all the confusion, different tracks are often recorded at different locations, especially live rock albums, and on different days and under different circumstances. There is also the hidden variable of POLARITY. As we all know an entire album can sometimes be out of absolute polarity OOP, On some albums polarity varies track to track. It might even be true that sometimes instruments on the SAME track are not in the same polarity.

In addition, as someone on this thread noted recently, most HiFi systems are not (rpt not) tested for polarity. The good news for those systems not in correct polarity when an OOP recording is played on them the sound will be in correct polarity.

Geoffkait · Apr 17, 2024

thedudeabides said:
Please clarify if you can. Are you implying some people that posted on this thread are ordinary? And if so, in what way are they ordinary?

What that expression means is it can be very difficult to get to the bottom of why we all experience problems with the sound. Even good sounding systems sometimes sound pretty terrible for no apparent reason. Lots of folks have been trying for 40+ years and they still can’t get it right, in my opinion, maybe not their opinion. I knew one guy who had 50 systems and still couldn't get it right.

Mcsnare · Apr 17, 2024

hopkins said:
Slightly off topic, but do you check mono compatibility when you produce your material?

No.

hopkins · Apr 17, 2024

Mcsnare said:
No.

Thanks. I was just curious if that was something done systematically (for those who listen on small bluetooth speakers, etc...)

morricab · Apr 17, 2024

bonzo75 said:
I have seen many. I also posted many years ago a picture of Haitink conducting that with the LSO and mentioned that a few times.

you can do a basic google of "antiphonal violins" and see what comes up..

In fact here is one google result "the detail of the instruments comes through and it helps that Klemperer, like many of the “Old School” divides his first and second violins, left and right to get the antiphonal sound that Beethoven wanted."

That said it is not only B. Recently I saw one for Schubert.

All violins on the left is mostly a stereo recording evolution, though some composers may or may not have laid it out that way. Maybe that's why Klemperer's monos are fine compared to his stereos.

Well of all the concerts I have heard in Europe and in the US, they were all arranged with violins on the left, violas left center, cellos right center and basses on the right...horns and other stuff behind the strings. I can't remember a single one that was substantially different from that. Of course with a piano concerto, the piano would be up front and some slight rearrangement.

For quartets and quintets, again, usually violins on the left, viola and cello on the right. I think I saw a couple of times this not strictly held to but they were playing more modern pieces.

bonzo75 · Apr 17, 2024

morricab said:
Well of all the concerts I have heard in Europe and in the US, they were all arranged with violins on the left, violas left center, cellos right center and basses on the right...horns and other stuff behind the strings. I can't remember a single one that was substantially different from that.

You should go to more then. Apparently happens in EU to, just look up YT

You can look up others, or simply read

morricab · Apr 17, 2024

bonzo75 said:
You should go to more then. Apparently happens in EU to, just look up YT

You can look up others, or simply read

Still not the regular configuration

bonzo75 · Apr 17, 2024

morricab said:
Still not the regular configuration

Yes in posted one that is not the regular and has the violins and cellos mixed

hopkins · Apr 17, 2024

tima said:
Before relative loudness, my (limited) understanding of jazz bands finds the primary instrumentalist, if there is one, in the center of the group. And he is there not only because he may be featured but because he is typically the conductor or at least is the leader who sets the timing. What I know of Ellington typically has his band around him in the center.

edit:

I'm thinking the arrangement is not for creating an image.

The standard configuration, for a big band, I believe, is piano on one side, brass on the other with the trumpets and trombones behind the reeds, drums in the center back and the bass usually somewhere in between next to the piano. Soloists come out in the front when they are featured. Smaller bands have much looser organizations.

I have never really paid much attention to this, to be honest.

hopkins · Apr 17, 2024

Edit: FWIW, I actually just looked it up and found this article:

Jazz Big Band Seating Placement – Earl MacDonald – Composer, Jazz Pianist, Music Educator

www.earlmacdonald.com

thedudeabides · Apr 17, 2024

Geoffkait said:
What that expression means is it can be very difficult to get to the bottom of why we all experience problems with the sound. Even good sounding systems sometimes sound pretty terrible for no apparent reason. Lots of folks have been trying for 40+ years and they still can’t get it right, in my opinion, maybe not their opinion. I knew one guy who had 50 systems and still couldn't get it right.

I assume you are referring to "good sounding systems" that sound terrible to you. Who cares? If the system owner thinks it sounds great, what's the issue? It is generally accepted that audio quality is a subjective judgement. In the end, that is all that really matters.

Respectfully.

Geoffkait · Apr 17, 2024

That’s weird, you completely misinterpreted what I said.

thedudeabides · Apr 17, 2024

Merely a different interpretation and a IMHO post. No agenda / mal intent. Best

Rexp · Apr 17, 2024

thedudeabides said:
Good sounding systems that sound terrible to you I assume. Who cares if the system owner thinks it sounds great because quality is a subjective matter and that is all that really matters and when all is said and done, counts in the end.

Best.

Yeah someone can think a crap system that has distortion, bad frequency response, no spatial details is high quality but it's still crap.

Hi-Fi is NOT a subjective hobby.

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