Is "Walking Up On Stage" a Sonic Attribute?

[bonzo75]

Kedar what Ron means and I certainly do is this.
it’s not a 3d reality event in walking up on the stage
it’s us in our chair hearing and there for imaging in our heads
you go to live concerts surely you know where some are playing from
But also what you like is almost mono where I dislike completely
as for timar what he likes is far from me
and I think a system needs to scale to hear positions if not we
Loose low level details and it only jumps when loud

this is quite silly. Most of my records are stereo and I also like mono. Mono originals are magnificent. You need experience with those old mono records to even comment you don’t like them.

all the other elements you talk about of staging imaging etc has nothing to do with Ron’s question. The question is not about pin point imaging, sound staging, or about a live event. No one here wants to lose low level details or scale

 

[Alrainbow]

Our brains have the best visual reality that gives us the virtual reality

 

[bonzo75]

Our brains have the best visual reality that gives us the virtual reality

sure, I often walk up on the stage to conduct and sometimes to play the lead guitar. I can do this on headphones too, or on a soundbar

 

[tima]

I
Might be wrong in his Understanding his question
but to me pinpointing, staging , bight and depth is a must to me. live many times seems to have this best feeling
years back disliked live recordings for not always having the sound quality of studio
The imaging , attack and air pits me there.
I can’t imagine a live event I am at wound or has had this type of experience much less a PA sound

Okay.

 

[Joe Whip]

I guess this topic is quite the minefield. Personally, especially when listening to live recordings, I want to feel like I am sitting in the hall or club. Nothing does this as well as Atmos but that is just me. I experience this all time time with 2 channel as well.

 

[tima]

When listening to my system, I do not want to think about "walking up on stage".

I think we largely agree, maybe not on every point; yours was an excellent post. Thank you.

I keep coming back to the idea that these soundstage effects are psycho-acoustic. The acoustic comes from speaker positioning and room factors. The mental aspect is what a listener experiences while listening; some listeners may be more susceptible than others.. Some role is played by recording, mastering and performance context. No single factor is their cause. If such audiophile effects are a 'sonic attribute' they are not independent from individual experience and thus not objective.

Listening to my stereo I am generally satisfied with the experience of an orchestra in a hall.

 

[PeterA]

The person who made the gear had a goal.

yes of course he does. I wrote that in my first response to the OP. The designer has a goal, and the listener has a goal. Presumably.

 

[Alrainbow]

Has any considered some of these stage effects are there on some headphones as well. no speaker or room treatments used lol.

 

[Rexp]

this is quite silly. Most of my records and stereo and I also like mono. Mono originals are magnificent. You need experience with those old mono records to even comment you don’t like them.

all the other elements you talk about of staging imaging etc has nothing to do with Ron’s question. The question is not about pin point imaging, sound staging, or about a live event. No one here wants to lose low level details or scale

@Alrainbow is answering Ron's question, which question are you answering?

 

[Kingrex]

I have experience the affect you talk about Ron. One time. At Howards listening to the Live Sound Design by Altec Lansing with 1505 multi cell horns. I though it amazing. It was one of the first times I teared up. I mentioned it in the past. It is the only other stereo I have heard that scales like Mikes. Mikes is much more composed and has significantly less distortion. Non the less, it was a hell of an experience. I don't know I want as much as Howards gave all the time. It was almost overwhelming. But it was a pretty amazing affect. It could almost be seen as a , be carefiul what you wish for. Maybe. Who knows. Maybe you get use to it. But what does that mean. I used ta do a little but a little wouldn't do. So the little got more and more.

 

[Amir]

Peter
In the real world we listen to Stereo systems and what we hear is CD/LP records not real Live music.
Comparing real music experience to mono or stereo reproduction (or quadraphonic ...) is another complex subject that is not related to this subject.

Imagine a LP/CD record has good 3D Image and your acoustic system (room, speaker, speaker position) can reveal all of those spatial information on the records, I see no problem here if your musical system gives you feeling of being on the stage so I have no problem with this effect.

The real problem is some audiophiles try to get 3d image at expense of tone/harmonics , for example I do not like digital processing machines and surround systems that gives you 3d image but kill the tone and texture of midrange.
The second example is speaker positioning , speakers in some positions give you perfect soundstage but the dynamics are compress and I prefer to place my speaker in a place to have maximum dynamics not best soundstage.
In Very few places both soundstage and dynamics are both perfect but finding those places is not easy.

my summary is the good image is not always against musicality but no one should kill tone/musicality for having Best soundstage.

 

[PeterA]

Peter
In the real world we listen to Stereo systems and what we hear is CD/LP records not real Live music.
Comparing real music experience to mono or stereo reproduction (or quadraphonic ...) is another complex subject that is not related to this subject.

Imagine a LP/CD record has good 3D Image and your acoustic system (room, speaker, speaker position) can reveal all of those spatial information on the records, I see no problem here if your musical system gives you feeling of being on the stage so I have no problem with this effect.

The real problem is some audiophiles try to get 3d image at expense of tone/harmonics , for example I do not like digital processing machines and surround systems that gives you 3d image but kill the tone and texture of midrange.
The second example is speaker positioning , speakers in some positions give you perfect soundstage but the dynamics are compress and I prefer to place my speaker in a place to have maximum dynamics not best soundstage.
In Very few places both soundstage and dynamics are both perfect but finding those places is not easy.

my summary is the good image is not always against musicality but no one should kill tone/musicality for having Best soundstage.

Amir, there is nothing wrong with a good image. I disagree that listening to live music is not related to listening to records or CDs on an audio system at home. If the former is the reference for the latter, they are related. The challenge is to understand how they are related and how one can inform the other to make the two experiences more similar.

 

[mtemur]

Since almost all recordings are two channel mono rather than stereo except some classic recordings from 50’s and 60’s and a handful of jazz recordings, I don’t think “walk up on stage” is really important. IMHO it’s an artificial thing to replicate a stage when the recording is a mix down of closely miked multi channel mono. It’s more important to concentrate achieving the right sound and timbre for each instrument. To concentrate if the piano, sax, violin, bass etc sound right.

 

[Amir]

Peter
I agree you listening to live music is related to listening to audio system but those two worlds are not 100% identical.
not all parameters are against the musicality.

as you know Vladimir Lamm used a special technique in his pre-amplifier design and the sound became better , this technique was not related to live music but the result was positive

 

[bonzo75]

The point is we have covered in multiple times on various threads imaging, resolution, soundstage, live event, natural sound, etc.

To have a separate walking up on stage attribute, it should not fit into any of those threads, or clearly say if I combine A and B I get walking up on stage. Is Ron coming up with a new jargon for the heck of it

 

[PeterA]

The point is we have covered in multiple times on various threads imaging, resolution, soundstage, live event, natural sound, etc.

To have a separate walking up on stage attribute, it should not fit into any of those threads, or clearly say if I combine A and B I get walking up on stage. Is Ron coming up with a new jargon for the heck of it

Karen Sumner had a great sub forum going for a while to discuss sound and what we hear.

 

[bonzo75]

Carnegie hall the weavers is a good example of well done staging In a 3d sound
You can see where they are who is more upfront
More Elevated even
Where is the man gently stoping in the stage. if you don’t hear this type of imaging well small speakers or not set up well systems then your missing out

this is an example of imaging and staging. Not of walking up on stage.

 

[Rexp]

Peter
In the real world we listen to Stereo systems and what we hear is CD/LP records not real Live music.
Comparing real music experience to mono or stereo reproduction (or quadraphonic ...) is another complex subject that is not related to this subject.

Imagine a LP/CD record has good 3D Image and your acoustic system (room, speaker, speaker position) can reveal all of those spatial information on the records, I see no problem here if your musical system gives you feeling of being on the stage so I have no problem with this effect.

The real problem is some audiophiles try to get 3d image at expense of tone/harmonics , for example I do not like digital processing machines and surround systems that gives you 3d image but kill the tone and texture of midrange.
The second example is speaker positioning , speakers in some positions give you perfect soundstage but the dynamics are compress and I prefer to place my speaker in a place to have maximum dynamics not best soundstage.
In Very few places both soundstage and dynamics are both perfect but finding those places is not easy.

my summary is the good image is not always against musicality but no one should kill tone/musicality for having Best soundstage.

This is the dilemma with some speakers that deliver a solid 3d image/space, they are less good at effortless dynamics. The Quested monitors I tried seem to do both but were too pig ugly for a domestic setting.

 

[Amir]

This is the dilemma with some speakers that deliver a solid 3d image/space, they are less good at effortless dynamics. The Quested monitors I tried seem to do both but were too pig ugly for a domestic setting.

Many modern speakers are not dynamic in my opinion.

 

[Kingrex]

Get a BACCH. Out of 10 people I am on a group with, only 1 returned it. The rest love it. Or ssem to say as much. If your already digital why not. You can wave your arms around crying "Processing ". Really. What filtets are you already using in your server and DAC. Isn't the magic of a Wadax software. Aren't the digital die hard converting PCM to DSD. Its not a valid argument to cry its processing. Especially if you can't hear the device change anything other than the immersion of the soundstage.