Is "Walking Up On Stage" a Sonic Attribute?

[Ron Resnick]

We discuss here many sonic attributes, such as dynamics and soundstaging and pinpoint imaging and tonality and transparency and resolution, etc.

When listening to a high-end audio system is the sensation of almost being able to walk up onto the stage of the music playback you are listening to a sonic attribute? Is this an artificial "hi-fi attribute"? Or is this a natural and organic goal of any good music playback system?

Is the feeling of almost being able to walk into the musical soundfield in front of you where the musicians are "playing" something you think about in your system?

Have you heard this effect on some systems but not on other systems?

What kinds of components or kinds of systems create this effect?

 

[Alrainbow]

My thoughts In a well bal system the recording give us what is there
how close we get to the stage is system setup
forward or backward this is a choice
For I like to be close so forward not all like this
stage width height and position with there position in depth and height is Whats there and a well defined system is needed.

 

[Rexp]

Not many speaker/amp combos deliver this 3D walk in effect, I don't really care if it's created artificially or not, once you've heard it there's no going back.

Some combos that have delivered for me:
ATC scm 20T's/Boulder amps
Ensemble PA1's/Audio Research amps
B&W 802N/Kondo amps
Pro monitors, Quested VH3208/Bryston amps

 

[Mike Lavigne]

at recent audio shows, when i hear a room with potential, i have asked for a Tidal file of Alice In Chains Unplugged that i really enjoy in my room. it's a live recording at 16/44, but even so in my room it really scales and breathes and has presence, depth, width and height.....great bass and a walk around soundstage. it truly comes alive in my room. like my tape or good vinyl. it's a very "live" recording.

i listen to it often at home and a few others like it because i enjoy it immensely. i can lose myself into it.

i've now heard it in maybe 25+ audio show rooms and maybe one did it credit. none did the scale i but one room so far was able to do it in a way i call complete.

i value this attribute very highly. it's what was behind my huge effort to build a new room and spend years finding it's synergy. it's what allows large scale music to flirt with suspension of disbelief. the only limitation is the recording. if it's got the goods my system can tell the whole story. is my total package to everyone's taste? of course not. but it does objectively do this thing very well.

i do think my Wadax combo does break the code on this issue at a very high level. i do not recall traveling as far down this road with the MSB or other previous dacs. but also having a full bottom octave with headroom helps too. it takes the lid off. maybe my nearfield seating position has a role too. definitely the Halo Deck spot.

one of the cool things about streaming is you never really know when a recording can touch all the bases. but many can. it's not really a format thing, more a recording thing, so analog or digital is not really the thing. how great is the recording? and the mastering chain?

so if you do attain a system that does full justice to large scale music there are many gems out there to uncover. but i'm sure many of those recordings are not fully discovered since how many systems can go there?

there are other levels and styles of a walk around soundstage. especially the 'they are here' type. low power/high efficiency smaller scale systems with smaller scale music can also pull this off when things are in line. my previous room in my previous home could mostly do that part quite effectively. and i'm sure many systems can do this. i hear it at friends homes.

i think if there is a type of music you like that your system can deliver this type of listening experience that is highly valuable.

 

[tima]

When listening to a high-end audio system is the sensation of almost being able to walk up onto the stage of the music playback you are listening to a sonic attribute?

It's a psycho-acoustic phenomena.

Is this an artificial "hi-fi attribute"?

Yes, in the same way black backgrounds are a hi-fi attribute.

Or is this a natural and organic goal of any good music playback system?

Not for me. I have not had such a perception in the concert hall or other venues.

Is the feeling of almost being able to walk into the musical soundfield in front of you where the musicians are "playing" something you think about in your system?

No

Have you heard this effect on some systems but not on other systems?

Yes.

What kinds of components or kinds of systems create this effect?

The same kind of system that is strong on pin-point imaging and dimensional outlines.

 

[bonzo75]

Any system that does a walk in stage if the stage is not on the record will get pretty boring after playing a few LPs that will sonically have the same stage. Though with girl on guitar type audiophool music such stages sound nice.

That said, I am assuming your walk in stage is a front of speaker, enveloping stage. If so, that is a hifi attribute that can be achieved by a lot of gear.

 

[Rexp]

It's a psycho-acoustic phenomena.



Yes, in the same way black backgrounds are a hi-fi attribute.



Not for me. I have not had such a perception in the concert hall or other venues.



No



Yes.



The same kind of system that is strong on pin-point imaging and dimensional outlines.

While you don't get the effect at a live concert, if it's on a recording and you're not hearing it, then your system isn't as resolving as it could be.

 

[bonzo75]

While you don't get the effect at a live concert, if it's on a recording and you're not hearing it, then your system isn't as resolving as it could be.

From Ron's post it is a system, not recording attribute.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

From Ron's post it is a system, not recording attribute.

every recording ought to be distinctly different, if the system can render it fully. the idea is to get out of the way of the recording's potential. when 'walk-around' is there, it should happen. that's my take, and where i'm going. so it's both. my system can't and i don't want it to 'fix' anything. but it should allow full music propagation and scale. both "they are here", and "you are there" resolving space and venue.

if the recording is relatively one dimensional or congested then that will also be there relative to other recording's attributes. and keep things coherent with FR in balance in all parts of the soundstage.

over time through my room and system development steps forward on this issue were easy to hear.

but this is a matter of preference, not a right or wrong path to take. for me it opens up a higher personal musical immersion. so i value it. i'm not necessarily equating the recording potential exactly equal to 'live', but many times it can be 'like that'. but it can also be more/different. and be fully right.

i have had the exact experience of hearing a live orchestra, then a high rez recording of that that was a better listening experience in my room. un-natural? you can make that case. maybe if i was sitting in other seats in the hall i would have a different take? it might be interesting to see how the conductor or composer might value the recording verses the live event's musical attributes, sitting in my room verses where i sat in the hall. might depend on his/her mood.

when i played the Alice In Chains Unplugged for the 25 guys from my club a few weeks back, one of them suggested i play 'Jar of Flies', that it was a great recording. so i did and liked it, but it paled in terms of sound staging and presence compared to the Unplugged. not in the same realm. like 'Jar of Flies' was slightly processed, and 'Unplugged' was free and open. and that is how it should be. each recording as different as it can be. this is not the only thing, but it's a big thing. if they did 'stage' approximately similar, i'd say you have work to do. and at shows, walking around, it's more normal that many recordings sound much more alike. it show's what is not coming through.

 

[Ron Resnick]

From Ron's post it is a system, not recording attribute.

Actually, I did not intend to imply that it is a system generated effect. I should've been explicit, so sorry about that.

I assumed that unless such information is encoded on the recording it would not be able to be reproduced by the system.

 

[bonzo75]

Actually, I did not intend to imply that it is a system generated effect. I should've been explicit, so sorry about that.

I assumed that unless such information is encoded on the recording it would not be able to be reproduced by the system.

if it was a recording effect it would have been a one off, or for such recordings only. Then you would have discussed it from a recording point. You phrased your first post as if it was a repetitive effect

 

[Ron Resnick]

Not for me. I have not had such a perception in the concert hall or other venues.

Maybe we are not understanding each other.

When you are in an actual concert hall listening to a performance you could, although it would be rude, stand up during the middle of the performance and walk up to the stage, and walk up onto the stage and stand next to the first violin player.

So how can it be that when you are sitting there in the concert hall you have not had such a perception that you could physically do this?

 

[Elliot G.]

Actually, I did not intend to imply that it is a system generated effect. I should've been explicit, so sorry about that.

I assumed that unless such information is encoded on the recording it would not be able to be reproduced by the system.

I love live recordings however most aren't great but occasionally you do find one that truly captures a live event. This is truly fun. The effect can't happen on a album/cd etc. when it wasn't recorded that way. The recording needs to be done in one place at one time for this to hapopen. Most popular music is not recorded that way and so that effect isnt possible.

 

[Elliot G.]

Maybe we are not understanding each other.

When you are in an actual concert hall listening to a performance you could, although it would be rude, stand up during the middle of the performance and walk up to the stage, and walk up onto the stage and stand next to the first violin player.

So how can it be that when you are sitting there in the concert hall you have not had such a perception that you could physically do this?

IMHO its not walking upon stage as much as it is being able to hear the spaces around the players and the space betwen the players along with the size of the environment. I never feel like I am walking up on stage, in fact to me thats kind of weird.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I never feel like I am walking up on stage, in fact to me thats kind of weird.

In my thinking about the opening post, it's not that you necessarily feel like you are walking up on stage. I had in mind that you could imagine yourself in the audience, and the ambient cues would be encoded on the recording, and the system would preserve the integrity of that phase information, such that you would have the sensation that you could walk up on stage if you wanted to.

 

[Elliot G.]

In my thinking about the opening post, it's not that you necessarily feel like you are walking up on stage. I had in mind that you could imagine yourself in the audience, and the ambient cues would be encoded on the recording, and the system would preserve the integrity of that phase information, such that you would have the sensation that you could walk up on stage if you wanted to.

As Mozart and Debussy both said the music is in the spaces between the notes. When you can actually hear this it is quite special IMO.
I think this is why I like a lot of live Jazz recordings since they can do this for me . Try E.S.T. Live in LOndon for example its very cool or of course very old school Belafonte live at Carnegie.These a re two of many great examples

 

[Mike Lavigne]

In my thinking about the opening post, it's not that you necessarily feel like you are walking up on stage. I had in mind that you could imagine yourself in the audience, and the ambient cues would be encoded on the recording, and the system would preserve the integrity of that phase information, such that you would have the sensation that you could walk up on stage if you wanted to.

right. the 'walking around the stage' feeling means that there are life like things in real space in front of you. the energy seems to fill the space and it's alive. maybe/certainly a bit different than most live events. more finely rendered. some recording magic. lacking and adding compared to actual real life. but it will do just fine. a bit of transportation going on.

YMMV.

 

[bonzo75]

In my thinking about the opening post, it's not that you necessarily feel like you are walking up on stage. I had in mind that you could imagine yourself in the audience, and the ambient cues would be encoded on the recording, and the system would preserve the integrity of that phase information, such that you would have the sensation that you could walk up on stage if you wanted to.

so why not simply ask do you feel like you are at a live event. That is what this current post is describing

 

[Mike Lavigne]

so why not simply ask do you feel like you are at a live event. That is what this current post is describing

a 'live' event runs the gamut of sound staging with so many variables. it might be a wall of sound. a 'walk around the stage' is more a level of separation and clarity involved, yet still alive and present sounding. a subset of live sounding events. the scale can be large or small.

 

[Ron Resnick]

so why not simply ask do you feel like you are at a live event. That is what this current post is describing

Because "do you feel like you are at a live event" is a broader, more holistic question than the narrow sensation or attribute I am raising in the opening post.