Suggestions for Reference level vintage MM carts
- Thread starter REXTON
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If you have a lot of time to spare, you might like to look at this Audiogon thread. The OP is somewhat polarising, and his English is unconventional, but he does seem to have spent an awful lot of time with classic MM cartridges.
Yeah, he is polarising. I went far down the vintage top MM rabbit hole some time ago, so hopefully this helps you.
Vintage top range MMs that I have tried and liked:
- ADC XLM mkII improved - midrange centric sound, soft sound lacking in ultimate detail, but a fun sound. Very high compliance which means low mass arm needed.
- Technics EPC-205C mk3 - worth tracking down for relatively little money. Excellent refined and well extended on top and bottom end. Slams like a MM should with 75% of a good MC resolution and air. Better than modern Nagaoka up to and including MP-500. Jico make an excellent MR + solid boron rod stylus replacement that gets you 75+% of the way there to an original retipped stylus. If you can track down an unmolested example with intact boron hollow pipe cantilever (not solid rod) that is not filled with crud from prior wet stylus cleaning and get it retipped to a MR stylus you have a nearly top of the line MM.
- Technics EPC-205C mk4 - very very hard to find in good condition, but even better than the mk3. Boron pipe is tapered to reduce tip mass further. Often have loose tie wire which causes an apparent suspension "collapse". Very difficult to fix the loose tieback wire but some good retippers can. Sounds like a Koetsu Black Goldline but with better slam and a more "fun" and "big" sound. You lose some of the top MC "air" but there is fine detail retained along with precise imaging (including depth) which is where MMs lose out typically to MC IMO.
Vintage MMs that I have tried and been meh about
- Victor X-1ii - the 2 examples of this that I tracked down had a certain hardness to the upper midrange which I did not care for, but otherwise sounded good... Do not confuse this with the inferior X-1iiE which had an interior elliptical stylus (non-E has a Shibata). The X-1ii has a beryllium cantilever which looks bent but is actually meant to look like that.
- ADC XLM mkII non improved - don't bother unless you like an unfocussed "vintage" sound.
I have always wanted to try the Grace F9/F10 but never got around to it before I got sidetracked by Koetsu. The F10 is nearly unobtainable IMO.
Hope this helps.
Vintage top range MMs that I have tried and liked:
- ADC XLM mkII improved - midrange centric sound, soft sound lacking in ultimate detail, but a fun sound. Very high compliance which means low mass arm needed.
- Technics EPC-205C mk3 - worth tracking down for relatively little money. Excellent refined and well extended on top and bottom end. Slams like a MM should with 75% of a good MC resolution and air. Better than modern Nagaoka up to and including MP-500. Jico make an excellent MR + solid boron rod stylus replacement that gets you 75+% of the way there to an original retipped stylus. If you can track down an unmolested example with intact boron hollow pipe cantilever (not solid rod) that is not filled with crud from prior wet stylus cleaning and get it retipped to a MR stylus you have a nearly top of the line MM.
- Technics EPC-205C mk4 - very very hard to find in good condition, but even better than the mk3. Boron pipe is tapered to reduce tip mass further. Often have loose tie wire which causes an apparent suspension "collapse". Very difficult to fix the loose tieback wire but some good retippers can. Sounds like a Koetsu Black Goldline but with better slam and a more "fun" and "big" sound. You lose some of the top MC "air" but there is fine detail retained along with precise imaging (including depth) which is where MMs lose out typically to MC IMO.
Vintage MMs that I have tried and been meh about
- Victor X-1ii - the 2 examples of this that I tracked down had a certain hardness to the upper midrange which I did not care for, but otherwise sounded good... Do not confuse this with the inferior X-1iiE which had an interior elliptical stylus (non-E has a Shibata). The X-1ii has a beryllium cantilever which looks bent but is actually meant to look like that.
- ADC XLM mkII non improved - don't bother unless you like an unfocussed "vintage" sound.
I have always wanted to try the Grace F9/F10 but never got around to it before I got sidetracked by Koetsu. The F10 is nearly unobtainable IMO.
Hope this helps.
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I wouldn't be me if I didn't throw in a plug for a Decca cartridge. High output, moving iron and tip-sensing. The older tin can Deccas are a bit wild and woolly, and have a reputation for hum and poor tracking, but offer an addictive alternative to MCs. The later models after John Wright took over are more refined and without problems, but they aren't cheap.
What cart qualifies as "reference level", "vintage" and "MM" at the same time?
If you ordered a Neumann VMS-70 cutting lathe in 1975 (vintage) it came fitted by default with either Ortofon SPU / SL, Elac SSG-555 (MM) or Shure V15III (MM) for reference.
I live happily with all of them.
cheers Ralf
If you ordered a Neumann VMS-70 cutting lathe in 1975 (vintage) it came fitted by default with either Ortofon SPU / SL, Elac SSG-555 (MM) or Shure V15III (MM) for reference.
I live happily with all of them.
cheers Ralf
F9L for me best compared to the F8 series, they have reduced needle mass dimensions to get more bandwidth to higher frequencies. open airy sound with wonderful midrange.
F 10 are moving coils. Types different cantilever
F-10C specifications:
Frequency characteristics: 20~30,000Hz±2dB
Output voltage: 0.5mV(5cm/sec, 1,000Hz, 45°)
Impedance: 15Ω±10%(1,000Hz)
Channel balance: within 0.5dB(1,000Hz)
Crosstalk: below -25dB(1,000Hz)
Stylus tip: 0.2×0.8mil Advanced Luminal Trace
Stylus pressure: 1.8gr (±0.3gr)
Compliance: 20×10-6cm/dyne
Cantilever: Superhard aluminum alloy-made tapered pipeline
Weight: 8.6gr
Price: ￥26,000
F-10L specifications:
Frequency characteristics: 20~30,000Hz±2dB
40~20,000Hz±1dB
Output voltage: 0.75mV(5cm/sec, 1,000Hz, 45°)
Impedance: 23Ω±10%(1,000Hz)
Channel balance: within 0.5dB(1,000Hz)
Crosstalk: below -25dB(1,000Hz)
Stylus tip: 0.2×0.8mil Advanced Luminal Trace
Stylus pressure: 1.8gr (±0.5gr)
Compliance: 20×10-6cm/dyne
Cantilever: Boron composite
Weight: 8.6gr
￥44,000
F-10P specifications:
Frequency characteristics: 20~25,000Hz±2dB
40~20,000Hz±1dB
Output voltage: 0.75mV(5cm/sec, 1,000Hz, 45°)
Impedance: 23Ω±10%(1,000Hz)
Channel balance: within 0.5dB(1,000Hz)
Crosstalk: below -25dB(1,000Hz)
Stylus tip: 0.2×0.8mil Advanced Luminal Trace
Stylus pressure: 2.5gr (±0.5gr)
Compliance: 13×10-6cm/dyne
Cantilever: Tapered OX titanium
Weight: 9.3gr
Those Grace cartridges are very good - so is this one:
Poor man's EPC-100, one of the second-best cartridges ever made:
regards Ralf
regards Ralf
Tony is absolutely right with his recommendation. Vacuum tube phono stages generally work better with MMs than your typical John Curl design.
The reason is simple: Most vacuum tube phono stages are optimized for high-resistance input like MMs or MCs through a step-up-transformer. So a high-resistance MM is their natural partner.
If you look at the transistor input stages of phono-amps 99% of them are build and optimized for low-resistance input like Moving-coils. High-resistance input is -if any- a mere afterthought. A simple Head-amp for Moving coils into a dedicated MM-input stage (70s topology) would give you lots of problems for MCs (noise).
Done right you have to build two different input-stages - one optimized for high-resistance input and one optimized for low-resistance input.
The Accuphase C47 phono-amp is a good example for this - it features two dedicated and totally different input stages for MC (9 parallel bipolar transistors) and MM (3 parallel FETs). Not the most cost-effective way to build a phono stage but the Japanese still like their Shure V15s...
cheers Ralf
The reason is simple: Most vacuum tube phono stages are optimized for high-resistance input like MMs or MCs through a step-up-transformer. So a high-resistance MM is their natural partner.
If you look at the transistor input stages of phono-amps 99% of them are build and optimized for low-resistance input like Moving-coils. High-resistance input is -if any- a mere afterthought. A simple Head-amp for Moving coils into a dedicated MM-input stage (70s topology) would give you lots of problems for MCs (noise).
Done right you have to build two different input-stages - one optimized for high-resistance input and one optimized for low-resistance input.
The Accuphase C47 phono-amp is a good example for this - it features two dedicated and totally different input stages for MC (9 parallel bipolar transistors) and MM (3 parallel FETs). Not the most cost-effective way to build a phono stage but the Japanese still like their Shure V15s...
cheers Ralf
Guys, quick update. I'm trying to put a deal together to get a Stanton 881-s, and I think I may just pull the hammer and get a Grace F9 / Soundsmith ruby cantilever. It's a fun adventure but not one where I'm prepared a stack of money on another phonostage, God knows I have enough of them cluttering up various systems! I have a EAR 834 Clone which performs very well and whilst quite lowly compared to some peoples kit it works well for me and that's the most inmportant thing here.
If I may offer an unsolicited suggestion...
Top shelf vintage MMs are indeed "great fun", but in my opinion still do not match upper-range or even mid-range MCs. Yes, the "MM sound" is fun, but not something I found I preferred in the long run to MC sound. The "fun girlfriend" vs "wife material" analogy held true for me.
So by all means, chase down the rare birds, but keep an eye on the costs as they tend to come in stages rather than all at one as problems occur. Finding a Grace F9 in good shape (~$700) and then adding on a SoundSmith ruby stylus (~$400) for example would set you back more than getting a second hand Denon 103R (~$200), having it recantilevered to boron+microridge stylus (~$550), and then adding a second hand mid-range SUT such as the Denon AU-320 (~$250). In my opinion the latter combination would provide superior sound quality.
Consider as well "repair-ability" and stylus replacements. Technics EPC-205 mk3/4 are essentially almost unrepairable if you have a collapsed suspension and want to keep the original stylus/cantilever. There are no good modern replacement styli for the Stanton series AFAIK. You would have to retip them - which runs about $500. Given the "market rate" for a good condition 881s is ~$800, we are getting into serious money territory - Hana ML territory or even a second hand Koetsu Blackline. There are some Jico aftermarket styli for the Shure V15 series and Technics EPC-205 series that are well received, and which I have used with success.
One can spend a lot of money chasing vintage MMs only to find that an MC used via SUT going into your EAR 834P (or other MM only phono) provides superior sound... Ask me how I know... Of course, it's dependent on your equipment (tonearm weight, etc), and YMMV... Say you have an Infinity Black Widow arm - you're "locked in" to MM!
Top shelf vintage MMs are indeed "great fun", but in my opinion still do not match upper-range or even mid-range MCs. Yes, the "MM sound" is fun, but not something I found I preferred in the long run to MC sound. The "fun girlfriend" vs "wife material" analogy held true for me.
So by all means, chase down the rare birds, but keep an eye on the costs as they tend to come in stages rather than all at one as problems occur. Finding a Grace F9 in good shape (~$700) and then adding on a SoundSmith ruby stylus (~$400) for example would set you back more than getting a second hand Denon 103R (~$200), having it recantilevered to boron+microridge stylus (~$550), and then adding a second hand mid-range SUT such as the Denon AU-320 (~$250). In my opinion the latter combination would provide superior sound quality.
Consider as well "repair-ability" and stylus replacements. Technics EPC-205 mk3/4 are essentially almost unrepairable if you have a collapsed suspension and want to keep the original stylus/cantilever. There are no good modern replacement styli for the Stanton series AFAIK. You would have to retip them - which runs about $500. Given the "market rate" for a good condition 881s is ~$800, we are getting into serious money territory - Hana ML territory or even a second hand Koetsu Blackline. There are some Jico aftermarket styli for the Shure V15 series and Technics EPC-205 series that are well received, and which I have used with success.
One can spend a lot of money chasing vintage MMs only to find that an MC used via SUT going into your EAR 834P (or other MM only phono) provides superior sound... Ask me how I know... Of course, it's dependent on your equipment (tonearm weight, etc), and YMMV... Say you have an Infinity Black Widow arm - you're "locked in" to MM!
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Hi, if you read the first post I highlighted that I wanted to try something different, away from high end MC's. I've done my Phasemation, Koetsu's, Audiotechnica's, SPU's, Cadenza blacks and a few others. I'm no virgin to Audiophilia and I'm perfectly aware of the cost associated with "pimping" these old MM's. I'm having fun and TBH I', not really that bothered about the cost. That might seem like a crass and vulgar statement but I don't think you put a price on enjoyment and doing something that gives you pleasure, and this is exactly what this little jaunt is providing. In fact, it's made me experience a few brands that I would have previoulsy never even given time to consider. Now I have a new found respect for some of these older defunct companies. So, thanks for the post, I appreciate that time you spent replying but I plough my own furrow and see where this journey takes me.
Just missed out on a ADC ZLM. Still awaiting to hear about a stanton 881-s. I have now decided to rule of the EPC range of Empire/Technics carts. I've been put off by reading too many threads regarding the suspension on these carts. I'm using a fixed headshell as well on a SME V-12, so the EPC range looks like it will have to be something I admire but never try and I'm not about to play the cartridge merry-go-round tryinig to find a decent specimen from Ebay or someone several thousand miles away with no chance of refunds if the cart is a dud. The good news is that the list is getting smaller.
Many of us (vintage reference MM lovers) started collecting some 20 years ago. Different market prices back then 
.
I use three arms on my deck. One for MM (frequent swapping), one for my various SPUs, one for a (kind of) reference MC. It's not a matter of choice between them. It's about enjoying all flavours.
.I use three arms on my deck. One for MM (frequent swapping), one for my various SPUs, one for a (kind of) reference MC. It's not a matter of choice between them. It's about enjoying all flavours.
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