Just to add another experience - I have Sound Lab M1 speakers, from an earlier generation - the speakers are 83” tall with the 90 degree arc. I have them set up ca 7 feet apart center to center and I sit about 7 feet back from the speakers - so near field. Imaging is strong as stated above. What you do find in near field is that the height of the image is smaller than if you sit farther back - at least with my speakers. Nearfield listening mitigates most of my room compromises, so works out to be the best solution for my situation.
Anyone have Sound Lab electrostatic speakers? I Searched...
- Thread starter jeffreybehr
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I moved to Sound Labs when my Quads failed. I had already been jaded by the Quads seamless presentation. No crossover and the "driver configuration" of the Sound Labs has made them my endgame speaker.
By "driver configuration" I am referencing how the modern versions are built. I am not sure about the legacy models. Frequency response is determined by the size of the grids. Note the nude photos Chris posted in post #27. (Thanks Chris)
If a Sound Lab is transected horizontally you can see the halves are a mirror image. Highs are in the middle. The midrange areas move up and down one level. Lows are at the top and bottom. The configuration influences proper speaker placement and provides a seamless presentation.
By "driver configuration" I am referencing how the modern versions are built. I am not sure about the legacy models. Frequency response is determined by the size of the grids. Note the nude photos Chris posted in post #27. (Thanks Chris)
If a Sound Lab is transected horizontally you can see the halves are a mirror image. Highs are in the middle. The midrange areas move up and down one level. Lows are at the top and bottom. The configuration influences proper speaker placement and provides a seamless presentation.
Regarding image size I once tried this listening test. I'll point out that solid state high current amplifier was an older model but the exact age as the tube model (with NOS USA made tubes).
I listened to a classical music trio I'd recorded in a chapel with a stereo pair of transformerless figure-eight microphones w/ 1/2" diaphragms, in a "Blumlein" configuration. Complete analog recording chain. Playback was on the 6 foot, 45 degree Sound Lab PX (but not with "Bass Focus") speakers.
First up, my normal tube amplifier. The image "window" I was hearing through (into the chapel) was (give it a number) lets say, six feet tall.
Next, the solid state amplifier. The "window" was about three feet tall and my perspective was more distant.
What does it mean? Nothing. Meaningless babble, but that's what I heard.
I listened to a classical music trio I'd recorded in a chapel with a stereo pair of transformerless figure-eight microphones w/ 1/2" diaphragms, in a "Blumlein" configuration. Complete analog recording chain. Playback was on the 6 foot, 45 degree Sound Lab PX (but not with "Bass Focus") speakers.
First up, my normal tube amplifier. The image "window" I was hearing through (into the chapel) was (give it a number) lets say, six feet tall.
Next, the solid state amplifier. The "window" was about three feet tall and my perspective was more distant.
What does it mean? Nothing. Meaningless babble, but that's what I heard.
Actually the entire one-piece diaphragm receives a fullrange signal, regardless of the size of the grids that make up the frame.
The reason for the different grid sizes is to deliberately space their drum-head resonances, a technique called "distributed resonance". SoundLab's distributed resonance technique smooths and extends the low end.
The new "Bass Focus" configuration is vertically symmetrical and places the largest grids (which have the lowest drum-head resonance frequency) at the top and bottom of the panel, such that the largest grids are closest to the floor and ceiling, the smallest grids being at the middle of the panel height. This maximizes the effects of low-end boundary reinforcement from proximity to the room boundaries, resulting in an incremental but worthwhile improvement in low-end extension relative to the older style, which had the smallest grids at the top and the largest ones at the bottom.
This is my Millenium M1 - you can see the 90 degree arc if you compare with Jeffrey’s speakers. Would love to hear from some one who has compared both 45 and 90 degree arc profiles as to what the differences are.
Andy
A question for Christopher.
1) Are the 5 cell SL speakers in the house the subs? If so was the frame made with no small spacing for mids and tweeters like a normal unit?
2) I would guess the larger 7 cell unit in the beautiful is an 845 Majestic?
3) You wesite looks clean and dynamic along with modern. Great layout.
4) Is there a large difference or ease of playing with the extra sub panels?
5) Who is the man in the video that helped you with the speaker. Not Dr. West. I have seen him at Audio shows and have talked to him but forgot his name. Is he related to Dr. West?
6) It is nice to see what you have done as a dealer with the Soundlab line in Japan especially the sound quality of your videos.
1) Are the 5 cell SL speakers in the house the subs? If so was the frame made with no small spacing for mids and tweeters like a normal unit?
2) I would guess the larger 7 cell unit in the beautiful is an 845 Majestic?
3) You wesite looks clean and dynamic along with modern. Great layout.
4) Is there a large difference or ease of playing with the extra sub panels?
5) Who is the man in the video that helped you with the speaker. Not Dr. West. I have seen him at Audio shows and have talked to him but forgot his name. Is he related to Dr. West?
6) It is nice to see what you have done as a dealer with the Soundlab line in Japan especially the sound quality of your videos.
And this is the first one I made (rather different music, but good to hear different things) This youtube has a bit more info on speaker placement detail - please see the description.
Happy to respond...I'm not entirely sure I'm understanding or visualizing all the right things you are asking.
1) '5cell SL speakers in the house' - I'm not sure what this is referring to. The bass panels are in the photo I am attaching here.
These are flat panels - it does have bass focus and distributed resonance same as the full range panels. Please be sure to understand that the 'spacing' for a normal unit is NOT for mids or high freq at all - the spacing is ALL for lower frequencies basically 200hz and lower. Therefore as the bass panels are only for 200hz and lower, the same spacing to achieve bass focus and distributed resonance are the same. The panels can be flat, because sound waves lower than 200hz have no 'beam' and resonate thru the room without requiring any angle dispersion.
Attachments
Continuing to answer to Earl
2) which is the larger 7 cell unti you are refering? I actually have no 845 Majestic.
3) thank you - trying to improve the website step by step
4) the bass panels (don't really want to call them 'subs' because they are not intended to be used as 'sub-woofers') - they add energy to the room and my living room is very large and opening to other rooms with a very high ceiling. They do make a difference, but certainly not necessary. They do require careful balancing with controls. (that discussion can be later if there is an inquiry)
5) helping me with speaker in youtube? That is Brett and he is the one who makes all your speakers now for many years, production manager.
6) the sound quality of video's? I have little confidence...it is just an 'accessory mike' with a DJI pocket 2. I have tended to stay away from social media but I realize that it is necessary for sharing ... and SL really needs to be shared because it is rare to have a chance to really see and hear in person. I will be showing at the California Show in July with 2 models and I believe also at Captial Fest in November on the east coast. There is also Dr. Vinyl in Maryland who is a new and very energetic dealer. I am hopefully trying to support for all Sound Lab dealers as much as everyone will let me. Let's see what happens.
Please ask if I haven't answered what you were expecting! And thanks.
2) which is the larger 7 cell unti you are refering? I actually have no 845 Majestic.
3) thank you - trying to improve the website step by step
4) the bass panels (don't really want to call them 'subs' because they are not intended to be used as 'sub-woofers') - they add energy to the room and my living room is very large and opening to other rooms with a very high ceiling. They do make a difference, but certainly not necessary. They do require careful balancing with controls. (that discussion can be later if there is an inquiry)
5) helping me with speaker in youtube? That is Brett and he is the one who makes all your speakers now for many years, production manager.
6) the sound quality of video's? I have little confidence...it is just an 'accessory mike' with a DJI pocket 2. I have tended to stay away from social media but I realize that it is necessary for sharing ... and SL really needs to be shared because it is rare to have a chance to really see and hear in person. I will be showing at the California Show in July with 2 models and I believe also at Captial Fest in November on the east coast. There is also Dr. Vinyl in Maryland who is a new and very energetic dealer. I am hopefully trying to support for all Sound Lab dealers as much as everyone will let me. Let's see what happens.
Please ask if I haven't answered what you were expecting! And thanks.
Hi Andy, I have put 2 45 degree full range panels 'together' forming a 90 degree arc - but really just to try it out. The 90 degree is really (in my opinion) only a good idea if you have a very wide listening area and want to be listening to music while moving around, having a concert for many people , otherwise you loose more of the total energy being directed at the main listening position, and you will also have more side wall reflections which most likely may not be wanted - but that again depends a lot on your set up/room etc. and of course personal preferences.
Thanks Chris
I have no complaints with my set up, but if I do get an opportunity to upgrade to the latest panel I will order 45’s.
Mine started as pre-PX which I sent in for a rebuild - Dr West rebuilt the stairs with PX wire as well as the membrane. I obviously don’t have bass focus in this set.
Cheers
Well, they certainly look great and if they have been rebuilt, they will really last for as long as we will (assuming you are not a teenager)
One thing I thought after is that you certainly will not have to think of 'toe-in' for the speakers, that is more of something that people with 45 degree speakers would consider. Bass focus, well I wouldn't worry about that. I have pre bass focus in one listening room and I have never been tempted to replace them for that. All the best, Chris
Now have 15 days of 24/7 music on the SoundLabs and 7 days on the Pass X260.8s--which I LOVE the sounds of--and have carefully adjusted the SLs' distances from listener.. The system sounds excellent--musical, quite-attractive tonally, spacious, well resolving.. Lower bass power still pleases me very much, altho ocassionally I'll turn on my pair of Rythmik 18"-driver subwoofers.
The Aesthetix Atlases are sold; the Ayre MX-Rs and Atma-Sphere MA-1s will be listed soon.. One of these weeks I'll get my multichannel PS Audio-based SACD system--the 5 pieces atop the equipment stand--running.
Here's the backend equipment.. The PSA M1200s and Classe Delta Monos are not being used currently.
The Aesthetix Atlases are sold; the Ayre MX-Rs and Atma-Sphere MA-1s will be listed soon.. One of these weeks I'll get my multichannel PS Audio-based SACD system--the 5 pieces atop the equipment stand--running.
Here's the backend equipment.. The PSA M1200s and Classe Delta Monos are not being used currently.
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After another 6 days on speakers and amps--tonite will be 20 and 12 days, respectively--the overall sounds continue to improve slightly. I've been able to increase the treble level a couple tiny 'notches' to about 9-o'clock, and massed strings (the bugaboo in my systems for years) still sound better than from prior speakersystems.. Maybe I'll quit the 24/7 break-in Monday afternoon with about 530 hours on the speakers and 320 hours on the amps.
Maybe this WE will be a great time to get my multichannel, PS Audio-based SACD system running!
This is absolutely the best-sounding system I've ever had, and it took only 66 years!!!!!!!!
FWIW, I've determined that the Pass amps probably will not require forced cooling.
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@jeffreybehr: Congratulations and welcome to the SoundLab club!
For over a quarter century, I've had the pleasure of owning 3-pairs of Dr. West's creations. My first pair were Millennium M1's. The 2nd. pair were Majestic PX's. Both of these, were the ~7-footers and now, I have the ~8’ 845PX's with "Bassfocus" SoundLabs. Once, I learned that Dr. West was involved with the best midrange I heard in the '70's (from JansZen electrostatics) and later, that Roger had developed the full-range SoundLabs, I was a buyer.
I had a pleasurable 5-hour listening session this morning. I'm driving my 845's with Atma-sphere MA-1's. And was wondering what your thoughts are on the Pass XA160.8 comparison to the MA-1's?
As with most components at the level of these 2-amps, I would imagine that each amp pair is outstanding -- i.e., they're more alike, than different.
About the MA-1's, I notice that you mentioned the following:
Ignoring the heat and pretending you're in a blind listening test, I wonder which would you prefer -- the Pass or the Atma-sphere? Do the Pass drive and control the SoundLabs as well or better than the Atma-sphere? How about imaging and soundstage and bass/mid/treble? Is one amp better at all traits? Or, how do they fare with each?
I'm asking, because I've been toying around with the idea of going solid state (ss) vs tubes.
I had a ss amp when I acquired my first SoundLab pair. It was a Levinson 436. Later, I simultaneously in-home auditioned Parasound JC1's and CAT JL1's. There was NO contest! The CAT's had decisive 1st. round knock-out's against both ss amps (& my Levinson). (I imagine Ken Stevens' 55lb in-house wound output transformers & even larger power transformers, plus pentode tubes wired in triode, have a lot to do with separating his amps from others).
The CAT's controlled my M1 SoundLabs like neither ss amp. Obviously since then, SoundLab's added the new consummate transformer and PX configuration. Among other pluses, those changes made the SoundLabs easier to drive. So, I not sure how that comparison would end 25-years later.
At any rate, most any high-end, middling-to-above wattage amplifier will drive SoundLabs today. The question always is, if you lined-up 5-different amplifiers which would be the choice? Unless you're a dealer with the opportunities to try that many different amplification options, it's always a crap-shoot selecting amplifiers, let alone other components. Listening is believing. Hence, the reason for my question and the fact that you own two really great amps.
In addition to Pass (especially the XA160), a pair of Benchmarks ABH2 amplifiers are said to be a superb (& economical) pairing with SoundLabs. A fairly new SoundLab owner and long-distance audio friend, has both ABH2’s and MA-1’s and it seems they're a:
“you say potatoe, I say potahto" comparison. For him and his California residence, heat is the deciding factor – apparently, they are that close though.
In any case, I’m happy that you’re happily enjoying your new SoundLabs! There are many great speakers available. For what the SoundLab's do better than cones and domes, they’re indeed a pleasure. Their bass may not be as impactful as cones, but man, once electrostatic bass accuracy is heard, for me, that last bit of sub-bass goes unmissed in my 2-channel system. For bass impact, I can move over to the home theater and the 2-subs. I have there.
I too wonder about differences among various amplifiers, but at 80YO my curiosity is very limited by my lack of muscle power, back strength, and overall energy.. I heard months ago how much better--more musical*--a pair of Pass X260.8s driving my V-steen 7.2s compared with a couple other SS amps I had.. Then more concerned with my electical bill than musicality, I stupidly sold the Passes two weeks after I bought them.. After the SLs arrived I realized that my heart and ears wanted that Pass sound again so I bought the new pair (for $7K more!)
I haven't had the Atma-Spheres running for a year or two, and my back and I have no interest in moving 100-pound amps around to do so.. I had a pair of Benchmark ABH2s and they bored me.
FWIW, I set the low-pass filter of my two Rythmik subs to 25Hz and the level low enough that their output helps 'only' the bottom octave.
TY for your good wishes.
* That term sometimes is used as a copout for lack of a more-precise characterization of the overall sound, but it suits my preferences excellently.. To me, it means sounding more like real music...just like these M745s.
I haven't had the Atma-Spheres running for a year or two, and my back and I have no interest in moving 100-pound amps around to do so.. I had a pair of Benchmark ABH2s and they bored me.
FWIW, I set the low-pass filter of my two Rythmik subs to 25Hz and the level low enough that their output helps 'only' the bottom octave.
TY for your good wishes.
* That term sometimes is used as a copout for lack of a more-precise characterization of the overall sound, but it suits my preferences excellently.. To me, it means sounding more like real music...just like these M745s.
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