Does Tonal Balance Affect Perceived Pace and Perceived Resolution?

Ron Resnick · Jun 26, 2024

mxk116 wrote on my system thread:

"This tonal shift also alters my perception of the rhythmic pace of the performance making the two recordings sound like two different takes of the same song."

I started a new thread on this point because I think it is an interesting topic: Do we sometimes mistake a difference in tonal balance for a difference in pace or a difference in resolution?

In radio communications speakers often have EQ buttons to suppress bass frequencies and emphasize midrange and treble frequencies to enhance the intelligibility of voice communications. But twisting up the treble control does not increase resolution (defined by me as the audio equivalent of pixels per unit of area) although it will enhance intelligibility and it may appear to enhance detail.

Does turning up the bass control (in our audio context, using warmer sounding electronics, for example) appear to slow down the pace of the musical presentation?

MadFloyd · Jun 26, 2024

In my experience, yes.

Especially if the bass is exciting the room resulting in more overhang etc.

I’ve experienced this not just from amplification but source components.

mtemur · Jun 26, 2024

I’m not sure if more bass slows down the pace but depending on the speaker’s design and speed more bass can reduce resolution. In some cases more bass can occupy driver so much that driver can pass details or cannot effectively produce higher frequencies. It’s also related with amplifier’s grip and control over speaker.

Ron Resnick · Jun 26, 2024

mtemur said:
depending on the speaker’s design and speed more bass can reduce resolution. In some cases more bass can occupy driver so much that driver can pass details or cannot effectively produce higher frequencies.

This makes sense to me if you are talking about a single driver speaker.

Assuming you are not talking about a single driver speaker, would you please elaborate on how this happens? For example, how would this happen in a three-way dynamic driver speaker?

mtemur · Jun 26, 2024

Ron Resnick said:
This makes sense to me if you are talking about a single driver speaker.

Assuming you are not talking about a single driver speaker, would you please elaborate on how this happens? For example, how would this happen in a three-way dynamic driver speaker?

Even in a 3 way dynamic speaker, a woofer is not only responsible for bass, it also produces some of the mid frequencies depending on the crossover cut off frequency. Additionally -again depending on the crossover design- a woofer continues to be active above cut off frequency but it decreases while frequency increases.

Ron Resnick · Jun 26, 2024

mtemur said:
Even in a 3 way dynamic speaker, a woofer is not only responsible for bass, it also produces some of the mid frequencies depending on the crossover cut off frequency. Additionally -again depending on the crossover design- a woofer continues to be active above cut off frequency but it decreases while frequency increases.

Yes.

You originally wrote "more bass can reduce resolution." How does this happen? Is actual resolution being reduced?

Or is the apparent detail being slightly blurred (with no actual change in resolution) if bass frequencies intrude into the midrange?

mtemur · Jun 26, 2024

Ron Resnick said:
Yes.

You originally wrote "more bass can reduce resolution." How does this happen? Is actual resolution being reduced?

Or is the apparent detail being slightly blurred (with no actual change in resolution) if bass frequencies intrude into the midrange?

If more bass prevents the driver doing it’s job resolution can reduce. Maybe it can be more noticeable on mid and high frequencies or on woofers covering more mid frequencies. A woofer trying hard to produce continuing bass note can pass to produce a low-mid detail.
I’m talking about minute differences.

Mike Lavigne · Jun 26, 2024

i see this differently. and i call it sneaky bass. and it's about balance (including tonal balance), where the system has the power headroom, and linearity in the upper and mid bass to stay linear. and that you don't have that one note bass overhang. you only have bass when it's there....and then you have BASS.

we see 'loudness' contour type bass performance where it's just easier to push one frequency instead of getting them all correct. or adding a sub and getting a degree of doubling which gets worse as you push things. just limitations of integration. maybe some of this is related to sealed box bass verses ported. degrees of precision in trade for fullness. lots of different approaches. but compromises do limit performance.

my system has plenty of power grid and amplification headroom, and it has -4- 11" woofers per side at 97db, 7 ohm efficiency only operating from 35hz to 250hz, then a bass tower (-4- 15" active drivers per side) from -3db @ 7hz to 50hz. lots of driver surface, minimal driver excursion, very fast and linear.

sneaky bass is real, and it can capture the whole picture and is not over emphasized to fill in what is missing by exaggerating what it can do to make up for what it cannot do. and the system integration is designed in. not added on. so tonally it holds up. and when the bass is extended and right, the highs are also in balance too.....and the tone is real and so is the music. and the pace and drive of the music is real and alive. then the detail does not get covered up, it comes thru as musical information and immersion. your investment in sources and media is fully realized.

tima · Jun 27, 2024

Ron Resnick said:
mxk116 wrote on my system thread:

"This tonal shift also alters my perception of the rhythmic pace of the performance making the two recordings sound like two different takes of the same song."

Here's the complete post for context which is about comparing 2 videos of two different performances, presumably made with the same system:

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/ron%E2%80%99s-new-system.35810/page-286#post-979842

He is saying (I think) that the different tonal balance of the two different performances (although he says "the performance" which seems confused) makes them sound like two version of the same recording.

Not to my ears -- they remain two different performances each distinct in the way they sound, each distinct in their tonalities and rhythms, and they do not sound like two versions of the same song.

Ron Resnick said:
Does turning up the bass control (in our audio context, using warmer sounding electronics, for example) appear to slow down the pace of the musical presentation?

It's not surprising that two different systems (one with warmer sounding electronics for example) might sound differently for the same performance.

To make any sense of this I imagine you would modify a system's tonal balance with an equalizer (tone controls) and play the same tune at different settings. Although the tune has the same duration, does one setting sound ... what? ... faster, quicker, slower, having a different time signature than the other? Pace strikes me as a highly subjective impression, so different impressions from different people would not surprise me.

Attempting to generalize across sonic characteristics (tone, pace) seems likely to produce a lot of discussion but bear little fruit.

thedudeabides · Jun 29, 2024

Yes. Pretty intuative and obvious in most cases.

Ron Resnick · Jun 29, 2024

thedudeabides said:
Yes. Pretty intuative and obvious in most cases.

Hi dude,

Please elaborate.

So a stereo system with a more forward, tilted-up tonal balance will sound more resolving?

Holmz · Jun 29, 2024

tima said:
… Pace strikes me as a highly subjective impression, so different impressions from different people would not surprise me.

True with “pace”…
But it becomes objective with impulse or transcient response… if in fact that what the subjective word “pace” is trying to describe.
“Fast/tight” bass is also often the subjective word used for transcient response.

If “Transcient Response” might be associated with “pace”.
And TR is often in opposition to low frequency extension.
So passive radiators, and ports might simultaneously have a different FR, and surely have a different TR.
Even if the FR is dolled up with signal processing, the TR would still be more “attacky” using sealed box, or open baffle, or infinite baffle, than with a ported box.

But doing multiple variables is not easy, so it can be hard to tease apart.

Or maybe it is just simple masking, and solely resides in the field of FR?
(Dunno)

tima · Jun 29, 2024

tima said:
Pace strikes me as a highly subjective impression, so different impressions from different people would not surprise me.

Holmz said:
True with “pace”…
But it becomes objective with impulse or transcient response… if in fact that what the subjective word “pace” is trying to describe.
“Fast/tight” bass is also often the subjective word used for transcient response.

If “Transcient Response” might be associated with “pace”.
And TR is often in opposition to low frequency extension.

In my reviews I rarely if ever use the word 'pace'. And I've not quite understood the British notion of "pace, rhthym and timing" as a singular characterization with those words grouped together. The closest I come is to use the word 'flow' -- which may be what some people mean by pace, rhthym and timing.

The way I make sense of it is by seeing how a composer characterizes it in his score using the standard Italian words for describing tempo, the typical translation of such may include the word 'pace' as an equivalent for 'speed'. For example:

Largo—very slowly and broad (40 - 58 bpm)
Adagio—slow (60 - 76 bpm)
Andante—walking speed (80 - 106 bpm)
Moderato—moderate pace (108 - 118 bpm)
Allegro—fast, cheerful (120 - 168 bpm)
Presto—very fast (170 - 220 b.p.m)

Where bpm means 'beats per minute' as defined with a metronome although conductors do bring their own interpretations of the composer's intent.. When tempo changes sometimes the description of change is relative to what it had been, so we get accelerando or ritardando.

Given all that (heh) I don't make a connection between transient response and tempo. I understand transient response as the relative attack made to a note when it is launched. A score can be explicit about this using a mark over a note that the note should be emphasized. Emphasis can be louder, longer, slightly higher pitch, etc. This is true even if there is no score. Musicians learn techniques for launching notes and individual instruments require different technique -- the attack of bow on string or tongue on mouthpiece. A well defined attack is what audiophiles often refer to a 'tight' or in the phrase you used 'fast tight bass'. But attack can also be otherwise where the note is not emphasized, where the note simply appears or eased into.

I suppose I do not associate tonal balance with pace.

Ron Resnick · Jun 30, 2024

I have never understood "pace, rhythm and timing" either.

I think some components, whether sources or electronics, can make a performance sound slightly faster and more energetic, or slightly slower and more lethargic. But I think that applies to all music that that component plays, and is not a variable, recording by recording, phenomenon.

Kjetil · Jun 30, 2024

Yes.
In my experience tonal balance is the single most important feature of a hifi system. This is the "resolving" Franco Serblin Ktêma.

tima · Jun 30, 2024

Ron Resnick said:
I think some components, whether sources or electronics, can make a performance sound slightly faster and more energetic, or slightly slower and more lethargic. But I think that applies to all music that that component plays, and is not a variable, recording by recording, phenomenon.

Thinking on this some more ... my post above, #13, may be somewhat lopsided in focusing on performance -- how the music is written and how it is performed. Given that angle, it is not incorrect. However what I did not considere well is how a listener hears music through his stereo or how a stereo plays that music.

I agree that some audio components and systems do bring an increased emphasis to the initial attack of notes, and do so apart from how the music is performed. This is a form of homogenizing.

Two examples that come to mind are Nordost interconnects and certain solid state electronics. My example there is a Soulution amplifer I heard driving Magico speakers at a CES show - canna remember which one. In the case of the cables I describe their sound as 'zingy' or 'too fast'. To me the entire line did this but it was worse from the lower tiers, red dawn and blue heaven -- regardless of what they connected. I have not paid attention to them in the last few years, so maybe they are different now. The Soulution Magico combo was hard and edgy to my ears, lacking subtlety. Having heard some Magicos with different amps, I did not hear that characteristic. Those were my impressions, others maybe hear them differently.

Some components do the opposite resulting in somewhat 'fat' or 'soft' attack or the sound is sometimes hefty, sometimes sweeter. Imo, the latter applies to the CJ Premier 140 amplifier, which I owned for several years.

In either case I don't associate tonal balance or imbalance with tempo.

Ron Resnick · Jun 30, 2024

Kjetil said:
Yes.
In my experience tonal balance is the single most important feature of a hifi system. This is the "resolving" Franco Serblin Ktêma.
View attachment 133232

Help me understand here. What are you suggesting here? Why do you have "resolving" in quotes?

mtemur · Jun 30, 2024

tima said:
My example there is a Soulution amplifer I heard driving Magico speakers at a CES show - canna remember which one. In the case of the cables I describe their sound as 'zingy' or 'too fast'. To me the entire line did this but it was worse from the lower tiers, red dawn and blue heaven -- regardless of what they connected.

tima said:
Some components do the opposite resulting in somewhat 'fat' or 'soft' attack or the sound is sometimes hefty, sometimes sweeter. Imo, the latter applies to the CJ Premier 140 amplifier, which I owned for several years.

Very good examples to describe those components’ sound characteristics IMHO. According to my experience that ‘zingy’ character is probably added by Nordost cables. Odin to be more specific.

I can describe CJ premier 8 as fat, sweet and juicy, very close to your description. On the other hand old Mark Levinson amps from 33 series -BTW still prefer over Gryphon- make you feel like someone slowed down the rhythm. Old ML amps are extremely effective on producing slowness feeling IMHO.

Ron Resnick · Jun 30, 2024

tima said:
In either case I don't associate tonal balance or imbalance with tempo.

Do you believe that tonal balance affects actual resolution (in some objective sense) or subjectively perceived resolution or sense of "detail"?

PeterA · Jun 30, 2024

Ron Resnick said:
Help me understand here. What are you suggesting here? Why do you have "resolving" in quotes?

Emphasized higher frequencies in the plot giving impression of more detail?

Does Tonal Balance Affect Perceived Pace and Perceived Resolution?

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