Does Tonal Balance Affect Perceived Pace and Perceived Resolution?

Two examples that come to mind are Nordost interconnects and certain solid state electronics. My example there is a Soulution amplifer I heard driving Magico speakers at a CES show - canna remember which one. In the case of the cables I describe their sound as 'zingy' or 'too fast'. To me the entire line did this but it was worse from the lower tiers, red dawn and blue heaven -- regardless of what they connected. I have not paid attention to them in the last few years, so maybe they are different now. The Soulution Magico combo was hard and edgy to my ears, lacking subtlety.
I'm switching to a different topic here, for a moment, but you gave me a convenient opening.

Some components do the opposite resulting in somewhat 'fat' or 'soft' attack or the sound is sometimes hefty, sometimes sweeter.

I know you disagree with this, but I perhaps I can map these different subjective sonic preferences to different objectives of the hobby.

Perhaps the person who likes the Soulution/Magico system has for the hobby the objective of "reproduce exactly what is on the tape, vinyl or digital source being played." Maybe this audiophile feels that that fast, detailed sound is what he/she wants because that's what he/she believes the microphone recording the musical performance might have heard.

Perhaps the person who likes the fatter, slower sounding system has for the hobby the objective of "recreate the sound of an original musical event," and, for this person, the fatter, slower sound is consonant with what he/she sees hears sitting 20 or 30 rows back in the concert hall?

Of course with any two specific audiophiles I might be looking for a correlation which doesn't exist in any particular instance. Both people might have the same hobby objective, and simply have different subjective sonic preferences.
 
This seems like an odd topic to me. The system should respond to what's on the recording and not have an obvious slant fast or slow. It should be able to present either case as the program material dictates. If you add low bass it should add weight but not "slow" the pace down.

Rob :)
 
Emphasized higher frequencies in the plot giving impression of more detail?
I was thinking that, too. But then I looked closely at the chart and 2kHz to 8kHz actually is pretty flat.

A rise after 9kHz doesn't contribute to the impression of higher resolution or more detail as much as does a rise of around 5kHz to 8kHz.
 
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A question that you have to answer very simply and clearly with YES and there is nothing more to say about it.
 
I was thinking that, too. But then I looked closely at the chart and 2kHz to 8kHz actually is pretty flat.

A rise after 9kHz doesn't contribute to the impression of more detail as much as does a rise of around 5kHz to 8kHz.

We might not be looking at the same plot. I see a steady rise from 800 Hz up. Maybe you see something different.

Emphasized upper frequencies don’t add detail or “resolution“. Perhaps some people perceive it this way, but I just hear brightness and the emphasis of high frequencies. Resolution is about a lot more than detail, and it is a subject that has been discussed elsewhere.
 
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Resolution is how much of the recording is revealed. Be it spacial locationality cues, realism, visceral impact or subtle nuances. (Of course, it's not limited to this).

The more one deep dives into this? The more they hear said resolution. The end result can be bliss and music behind the music, if you will...

Tom
 
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When you hear it? You will know.

Tom
I, Karen Sumner and TimA hear and understand that some components sound faster and livelier, and some components sound slower and more lethargic. If that's what you mean, then we all agree.

But if you mean by "PR&T" something more than this, then TimA, assuming I am understanding correctly his view, and I are in good company with Karen Sumner who, according to my interpretation of her essays on WBF, doesn't use, and doesn't really understand, the term "PR&T."

It's perfectly fine if you like the term. It doesn't mean everyone has to like it.:)
 
A question that you have to answer very simply and clearly with YES and there is nothing more to say about it.
Thank you for replying. But it's a subjective hobby, and nobody will "have" to answer in any particular way.

Can you give us an example of how tilted up tonal balance increases resolution?
 
rhythm and timing was very evident on Tang's EMT 927 compared to his other two belts, it just made you break into an Elvis. It did not have nuance compared to the other two, that was the issue.

On fast - some try to appear fast by truncating notes and just giving leading edge. I disagree flow is fast, flow is about continuity as compared to a stop start. Good analog compared to bad digital or good belt compared to bad DD is a classic example of flow.

On the other hand, the good fast components - There are so many inner inflections and nuances so music is moving fast. We are getting the impact of the music at more frequent intervals is the best way to put it.

Opposite of fast is sluggish..

With speakers, it is more about grip on drivers. Too much grip chokes, too little is sluggish movement. The fastest, for example, is very low watt amps with very high sensitive speakers. You can immediately hear a difference when you drop from a big tube like 211, 845 or 833 to a smaller one like 2a3 or 46 provided it can drive the speaker. If the 2a3 cannot drive, the headroom will be less, it will sound dynamically compressed, and woofers will move sluggishly

The faster ones do more and are therefore more exciting as opposed to boring. This is a positive term, and does not mean hurried, which is a negative term. Vyger RS, vdh, and Dava are classic examples of why you can perceive something as faster compared to Koetsu, because you are hearing more inner nuances of the violin or any instrument.

Bass issues can make something slow as overhang can, for example, drown out other notes.
 
Very good examples to describe those components’ sound characteristics IMHO. According to my experience that ‘zingy’ character is probably added by Nordost cables. Odin to be more specific.

I can describe CJ premier 8 as fat, sweet and juicy, very close to your description. On the other hand old Mark Levinson amps from 33 series -BTW still prefer over Gryphon- make you feel like someone slowed down the rhythm. Old ML amps are extremely effective on producing slowness feeling IMHO.
That period top SS amps used transistors that just sound slower and fatter then modern designs Krell FPB amps sound like that too.
 
Following this thread, (great thread BTW), it seems to me that these factors, gotten right for each of us are of paramount importance and when accomplished result in the balanced presentation that can make a system less prone to fatigue and approach the sublime. Getting so many factors correct is a tall order and probably responsible for the rabbit hole so many of us have fallen into.
 
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That period top SS amps used transistors that just sound slower and fatter then modern designs Krell FPB amps sound like that too.

In SS, Vitus and pass and Luxman sound relatively slower to spectral, Boulder, and some others. Not saying that makes one better.

Electrostats are “fast” compared to standard cones
 
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Emphasize upper frequencies don’t add detail or “resolution“. Perhaps some people perceive it this way, but I just hear brightness and the emphasis of high frequencies.

This is precisely the topic of the thread. Thank you for weighing in.

I personally agree with you that emphasis of upper frequencies doesn't actually add detail or resolution. But does it have the subjective appearance -- the subjective sense or effect -- of "adding" detail or resolution?
 
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Slow vs. Fast?

Sounds like a discussion about dynamics.

Rob :)
 
There are a lot of factors that can affect pace and tonal balance can affect resolution in many ways too.

An overly warm tonal balance is the result of distortion and noise, it reduces resolution, rounds off leading edges so it compromises transient response and makes the music seem "slow".

Other types of noise can accentuate leading edges, this sounds zingy, fast, but often bright. Also, it's fatiguing due to being overly stimulating.

Room acoustics or issues with speaker/subwoofer design can also cause delays and overhangs, which muddles the music and can make is sound slow. A poorly designed ported speaker or subwoofer, a majority of back-loaded horns, a simple OB woofer with a lot of cancelation all sound slow and muddled. Overhang or overly slow decay times due to poor room acoustics have a similar effect and make the music seem slow.

Amplifier and speaker matching is another. Once the damping factor gets too low the amp loses electrical control over the drivers and you end up with loose, boomy and distorted bass, and loss of control and resolution in mid and high frequencies. This is why many vintage drivers use a tight suspension, the combination of amps with high high output impedance and often light gauge speaker cables with enough gauge to handle the amperage, but which also add significant resistance, combine to reduce electrical damping to the point where the amp can't control the driver properly, so a stiff suspension compensates for this and mechanically controls the driver. But then the driver isn't compatible with amps with low output impedance, you get too little bass.

Warmth added by cables reduces resolution and smears detail, which also rounds off leading edges and makes the sound slow, but cables can also accentuate leading edges as described previously. Gold plating is an example of one cause of warmth, and impure silver is an example of a cause of accentuating leading edges. Noise is the cause of brightness or edge.

The better the system in terms of avoiding noise that causes accentuated leading edges, a bright sound, harshness or edge, the less warmth you need to compensate to achieve the right tonal balance and avoid fatigue. This results in better pace, clarity, resolution, soundstage, and timbre.

I can also share that in terms of cables, as the years go by I have reduced the overall warmth my cables add to the sound. A majority of my sales are from repeat customers, and as my customers improve their systems, the less warmth they want from cables for reasons previously stated. On a whole, looking at the hobby and industry in general, as component manufacturers design and sell better sources and amplification, the less warmth people want from cables. I am actually about to revise my current top-end IC offerings again, currently I have two main designs, one that uses gold alloyed with UPOCC silver, and the other that uses pure silver ribbon wire, into one design that offers the best of both and will be an improvement on both. It will be a bit less warm than either current cable. I've gradually decreased the amount of gold in my cables, it's now half of what it was 10 years ago, and I think things are now at a point where I won't even use gold at all, instead of gold or ribbon wire, I'll be making a heavier gauge cable using conventional round wire that will offer better resolution than the gold cable and superior noise rejection and self-noise characteristics over ribbon wire. Also, a new top-end cable will be coming out that does away with teflon entirely and results in a sound where the conductor material can no longer be identified by listening. It's not warm, but there's also no hint of brightness. Resolution is superior to anything I've ever tested, but at the same time it's also the least fatiguing cable I've ever tested.

Finally, I think for folks who want to improve their system and currently have a system with a warm tonal balance, the way forward is both by a reduction of noise and other fatiguing artifacts, as well as a reduction in warmth. For those who are willing and able, one largely unaddressed issue is the relatively poor quality wire and connectors often used by component and speaker manufacturers. People will spend big-$ on external cables all the while leaving much lower quality wire and connectors in their components and speakers. This results in mismatched materials such as using a combination of gold and rhodium plating (especially in AC power parts), brass binding posts and signal level connectors, and far lower quality wire. If you're willing to spend 5-6 figures on cables, please consider paying a tech to install high quality IEC inlets, RCA and XLR ins/outs, binding posts and wire in your components and speakers.
 
I, Karen Sumner and TimA hear and understand that some components sound faster and livelier, and some components sound slower and more lethargic. If that's what you mean, then we all agree.

But if you mean by "PR&T" something more than this, then TimA, assuming I am understanding correctly his view, and I are in good company with Karen Sumner who, according to my interpretation of her essays on WBF, doesn't use, and doesn't really understand, the term "PR&T."

It's perfectly fine if you like the term. It doesn't mean everyone has to like it.:)
Well, okay then. It has a purpose and it is audible. Like I mentioned, When you hear it? You will know.

Tom
 
Listening to music that has it helps too ;) Girl with guitar, not so much.


Acoustic guitars have a lot of subtle transients and dynamic swings going on, I find them, and all string instruments, to be good tests for audio system performance. Maybe not as dynamic as percussion for example, but even more demanding in some ways.
 
This is precisely the topic of the thread. Thank you for weighing in.

I personally agree with you that emphasis of upper frequencies doesn't actually add detail or resolution. But does it have the subjective appearance -- the subjective sense or effect -- of "adding" detail or resolution?

I thought I answered this. Perhaps it does to some but not to me. Resolution is about extracting the information on the recording and presenting it to the listen. I’m talking about all the information on the recording.

Do you not see the emphasized high frequencies in that plot above 800 Hz?
 

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