This is an interesting comparison, Peter. It's especially interesting because the circuits are so different: The L1 is a solid-state pre-amp (with tube power supply) and the LL1 is all tube.
Natural Sound
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I don’t know Ron. My judgment is based on listening and my reference target. Vladimir Lamm was a genius and as you know, I really liked his solid state M1.1 amplifiers. His stuff all sounds natural and is the basis for this thread. Different models with different designs and implementation, simply present slightly different degrees of natural sound.
Romy, the Cat writes about this preamp and describes what he calls the X Factor. David Karmeli describes this elusive quality as some bit of magic. It is difficult to describe, but when you hear it, you know.
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Am i right to assume your four box version is having problems and out for repair ? Like my own tubed phono is too
Milan, my LL1 is not out for repair. I simply wanted a spare preamp, spare phone stage, and spare set of amplifiers, all from Lamm, so that if and when anything needs to be repaired, I can still play music. I kept my LP 2.1 deluxe when I upgraded to my LP1 phonostage. I also recently bought a second pair of original ML2 amplifiers.
I have a nice old Denon direct drive turntable and with the right pair of easy to drive speakers, I will have a second system that will meet my personal criteria for natural sound.
I didn’t think the M1.1 sounded very good. It’s a hybrid and not pure SS… The ML2s sounded good the one time I heard them. I agree with Ron, though it is interesting that one is tube and one is SS but with a tube power supply…most curious.
I don’t have your experience, Brad, but I’ve heard a number of Solis state amplifiers and they all sound different and I’ve heard a number of tube amplifiers and they all sound different. No I have not compared them all in the same system, but I have heard different solid-state amplifiers in the same system and different tube amplifiers in the same system and I did hear the 1.1 and the ML2 in my system with the same speakers.
Different amplifiers for different speaker loads. I agree they sound different and I prefer the tube amplifier but it depends on what speaker they’re driving. I decided to choose the amplifier and then the speaker in that order.
Everyone has different different preferences. It sounds to me as though Ron will not consider a solid state. I like some solid amplifiers with some speakers. We make our choices, and I understand commenting on other peoples choices.
Thank you Leyenda. I think you are right about the L1/L2. I have not found any area where I prefer the L1, but it has a slightly more raw, bold sound, less refinement, and perhaps I will prefer it on rock music. I have not tried that yet.
Lamm's mathematical models of human hearing derived from blind listening tests are component neutral. This "X Factor" or magic or however you name the Lamm signature is present across his entire line of phonostages, linestages and amps.. The fundamental character of "the Lamm sound", imo, does not change as you move from lower tier to the top models; it simply becomes more sophisticated and revealing.
Hello wbass, My room is 15’ X 16’ X 7.5’. I wish it were larger. Sorry, I don’t have any any advice about where to hear a pair of the speakers. There are quite a few different versions.
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Vitavox Hifi - Vitavox continues to build on this illustrious history hand crafting components to power some of the world's finest loudspeaker systems
For over three quarters of a century the name Vitavox has stood for the finest quality in sound reproduction; a reputation built on a dedication to excellence in design and engineering that has remained undiminished. Today, Vitavox continues to build on this illustrious history; hand crafting...
www.vitavoxhifi.co.uk
Sure, I saw that, too, as it comes up first on Google. It's a bit hard to say how active they are. They seem to be making reproduction drivers, though possibly with the same tools, same parts, etc. I'm sometimes a little skeptical of these resurrected or semi-resurrected brands, as they can kind of come and go, and I've never seen coverage of a new-build Vitavox in the audio press, etc.Vitavox Hifi - Vitavox continues to build on this illustrious history hand crafting components to power some of the world's finest loudspeaker systems
For over three quarters of a century the name Vitavox has stood for the finest quality in sound reproduction; a reputation built on a dedication to excellence in design and engineering that has remained undiminished. Today, Vitavox continues to build on this illustrious history; hand crafting...
But could be they're legit and in it for the long haul. I guess I was more curious about original Vitavox, but I'll drop these folks a line.
This company might know of a pair in the field that you can audition or perhaps they have a dealer somewhere in England. The new ones are very expensive. Some folks say the new and old and every iteration of these speakers sound the same. I understand that is not the case. Materials have changed, as have the cabinet designs.
I hope you find a pair somewhere that you can hear in a system. I recommend listening to the actual pair before buying. I would be interested in learning what amplifiers this new company recommends using.
Just to be clear (and not meaning to kill the vibe) the "X Factor' is the distortion signature. If its all lower ordered harmonics the equipment will be musical.
Ralph, I have only heard your amplifiers in a couple systems at shows but never done a direct comparison. I’m sure your products sound different. How would you say the distortion signatures differ between the two products?
My vibe is to assemble a system that reminds me of the experience of listening to real music in my living room.
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i think i get what you mean in a positive sense........when the mic'ing and ensemble size and recording venue size is similar? right? small combo classical? right? or something appropriate for your living room size?
otherwise wouldn't you want the experience to resemble the sound of live music according to the venue and ideal listening position for that recording? and they are pretty much all different. so if they all "sounded like listening to real music in your living room" that would be a problem? right?
Yes. What I meant is that I’m in my listening room trying to experience the music on the recording. I was not trying to make a comment about “you are there” versus “they are here”.
With this system, it’s easier to imagine being at the recording venue, whether that is in a concert hall, jazz club, or recording studio. Sometimes, given the right small scale recording with few ambience cues, girl with guitar for instance, being there, or she being here doesn’t really matter. I don’t imagine a symphony or big band playing in my living room, but I often imagine being at those locations.
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They are similar; the tube Lamm equipment we've had in the shop was quite good. Owing to our use a balanced lines and more direct-coupling, both at the output of our balanced tube preamps and also our tube power amplifiers, our gear was more transparent by comparison.
Our equipment tends to have a prominent 3rd harmonic rather than the 2nd. The 3rd appears in our gear at a level a bit less than the 3rd does in a typical SET. So as a result the amps tend to make only about 0.5 to 1% THD at full power (compare with 10% for almost any SET at clipping; many SETs are rated below clipping to avoid this value being published) with IMD much less -about 0.05% or less. The 3rd is treated by the ear the same as the 2nd (properly functioning tape machines make a 3rd harmonic also, just for perspective).
Electronics that have the 3rd as the dominant harmonic tend to be lower distortion overall than those that produce the 2nd as dominant. In our equipment this is because even orders are cancelled throughout the circuit so distortion is not compounded as much as in single-ended circuits.
So this information tells us that the Atma-Sphere equipment does not sound as lush as anything single-ended simply owing to the distortion being significantly lower. Its more neutral yet isn't dry since the 3rd sweetens things up a bit. Since distortion is lower overall, low level detail is easier to make out because distortion tends to obscure detail. IME this is easy to hear- and most people notice it in only a few seconds.
We had the hybrid Lamm here as well. IMO that amplifier sounds bright and really isn't in the same league as their tube stuff.
My model for a two channel stereo is it makes your room into a sort of space/time machine where the front wall vanishes and the room is grafted into the musical event. This isn't a perfect model as 2 mic true stereo recordings can pick up audience sound that would be indistinct if the room were really grafted into the musical event. But its the best working model I've seen so far.
the hybrids, like Brad said, aren’t good. They were by far the least good sounding with Sigma MAAT and Toni (TZBC) had them as well, he moved on from them and both of us had a similar impression in different systems. Maybe they work with very inefficient speakers. i haven’t heard any good hybrid except for the thrax hybrid. The Ypsilon hybrid was also mediocre.
I shared the measurements of my amplifiers somewhere earlier in the thread, specifically the plot of total harmonic distortion versus power into a 16 ohm load on the 16 ohm output.
As my speakers are 16 ohm, 105 DB efficient in a small room and I listen at maybe 70 to 80 dB with peaks at 90, i figure I do not use much power. The distortion figure at 20 Hz, 1000 Hz, and 20,000 Hz ranges between .2 and 1% at 3 Watts of power. At full power 18W it’s 2%. I wonder if I ever use more than 3 W.
In the end, I am more interested in the way something sounds than how it measures, but I’m not a designer. We make our choices based on what sounds best to us. It’s nice to have choices. Good luck with your designs and thank you for your interest in my system thread.
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