Natural Sound

This thread started as a documentary of sorts, by Peter as to how he was able to put together a system that gave him the sound he was looking for, a sound he refers to as "natural". He tries to explain that (his) "natural sound" should convey the tone, dynamics, presence and emotion of a live performance, and that no hi-fi aspect should draw attention to itself.

He listed many changes undertaken on the way, removing isolation devices, returning to stock or plain wiring, obtaining the best analogue front end that he could and putting out the sound with Lamm SET's and 1950's Vitavox (CN-191) corner (folded) horn speakers.

Here is a YouTube example of what he likes the sound of:

Tima obtains a very "natural" sound, also with Lamm SET's and horns, but different horns (JBL M9500's) and front end, as below:

I have gone down a similar road but with a smaller budget, however for that same sound, characterised by the best analogue front end I could afford, SET's (Soundgate, not Lamm) and vintage horns (Altec's), as follows:

There is a similar sound character in the outcome of each of our Analogue LP + SET's + vintage horn speaker approaches. No one is suggesting that this approach and sound is for everyone, it doesn't claim superiority to any other approach, it is just an approach that gave each of us what we like and if you like it you can look closer at the elements/explanations and take from it what you will.

PeterA said:

It is interesting that Kingrex would accuse me of dismissing all sorts of speakers, and I never made a statement as definitive as what you just wrote in bold. As I say, many of the claims people attribute to me are simply in their imaginations.

Click to expand...

My wife is highly intelligent. She has been an executive and serves on boards. She uses precision words. It confounds her that I at times tell her I don't care how precise her words are. We are not lawyers. We are people having a conversation. You can use the most precision words you want. But conersation is not what you said. Its what I think I heard you say. And again you Peter said, other speakers sound natural, but not as natural as what you have now. Do you not hear the flag in the sand??? Or are you stuck on your own words.
I and some others hear you dancing around the idea that you have the most natural sound now that you have horns. That then means the other stuff while good, even great, just isn't quite there. And this is Whatsbestforum where people seek the pinnacle of performance and they will never get there according to the Natural Sound thread unless they follow the low power/horn topology.

But really, I don't care. I heard enough horns and spoke to enough owners to know if you go down that path, its a long road and success is far from assured. Most likely you will fail. Or you will be in a constant state of dissatisfaction. But then again, most people feel that way anyhow with audio. Swapping gear, cables and speakers.

God wants SET/Horns …

bonzo75 said:

I thought previously the best was Howad Swayne's that you heard. How different is that one from the Portland one, and from yours?

Click to expand...

Howards crossover was a mess. Even he after selling it and using a Klipsch realized the issues. And I in the past said that it did some things in an amazing way, but I would not want to hear it every day.

I have posted the picture of the one in Portland a few times. He did some crossover work last year and tightened it up more. It's still a horn. Your very aware its a horn. But he tamed the heat a little. And again, every day may be a lot. Not sure.

My horn is just the PAP Trio 15 horn. Horn takes over around 1200 hertz with a gentle slope. It's no where near as good as the coax. The coax had a concentric horn for the high frequency.

Rensselaer said:

There is a similar sound character in the outcome of each of our Analogue LP + SET's + vintage horn speaker approaches. No one is suggesting that this approach and sound is for everyone, it doesn't claim superiority to any other approach, it is just an approach that gave each of us what we like and if you like it you can look closer at the elements/explanations and take from it what you will.

Click to expand...

I disagree with similar sound/character, apart from valves. Sure if you put valves on it will sound different to solid state on a broad basis, but there are a lot of nuances which can make many horn systems sound not good, worse than cone based systems. So I don't like generalizing that, though I agree with the direction.

bonzo75 said:

Btw, horns are very popular on the lansing hiritage forum, audio karma, the old audioasylum, some UK and French forums, on facebook there are multiple groups. They were not in favor on forums like WBF where people listening to audiophile music measured things by price, glitz, etc. There is a herd mentality that develops where people regularly read posts and believe that to be the eternal truth.

Click to expand...

I have tried some of those threads. Sure there is a nitch group. But a nitch does not make a trend. What % of rooms at a show are SET and horn. That seems to tell a more accurate picture. If anything, I would say the trend is more integrated components running on class D amps. Single box and a nice ported speaker.

Kingrex said:

I have tried some of those threads. Sure there is a nitch group. But a nitch does not make a trend. What % of rooms at a show are SET and horn. That seems to tell a more accurate picture. If anything, I would say the trend is more integrated components running on class D amps. Single box and a nice ported speaker.

Click to expand...

Have you seen the high percent at Munich? And many are not even the good ones

bonzo75 said:

I disagree with similar sound/character, apart from valves. Sure if you put valves on it will sound different to solid state on a broad basis, but there are a lot of nuances which can make many horn systems sound not good, worse than cone based systems. So I don't like generalizing that, though I agree with the direction.

Click to expand...

I didn’t mean to imply they sounded similar. Mine admittedly is not in the same league as Peter’s or Tim’s, and they sound different from each other, however there is a family resemblance.

Amir said:

God wants SET/Horns …

Click to expand...

When the horns blow for armageddon yes, but not before !

Rensselaer said:

This thread started as a documentary of sorts, by Peter as to how he was able to put together a system that gave him the sound he was looking for, a sound he refers to as "natural". He tries to explain that (his) "natural sound" should convey the tone, dynamics, presence and emotion of a live performance, and that no hi-fi aspect should draw attention to itself.

He listed many changes undertaken on the way, removing isolation devices, returning to stock or plain wiring, obtaining the best analogue front end that he could and putting out the sound with Lamm SET's and 1950's Vitavox (CN-191) corner (folded) horn speakers.

Here is a YouTube example of what he likes the sound of:

Tima obtains a very "natural" sound, also with Lamm SET's and horns, but different horns (JBL M9500's) and front end, as below:

I have gone down a similar road but with a smaller budget, however for that same sound, characterised by the best analogue front end I could afford, SET's (Soundgate, not Lamm) and vintage horns (Altec's), as follows:

There is a similar sound character in the outcome of each of our Analogue LP + SET's + vintage horn speaker approaches. No one is suggesting that this approach and sound is for everyone, it doesn't claim superiority to any other approach, it is just an approach that gave each of us what we like and if you like it you can look closer at the elements/explanations and take from it what you will.

Click to expand...

At the risk of ruffling some feathers, the sound on these videos do have similarities, but I would not say that the sound is "natural" to my ears.

There's good detail, the instruments are "projected" well, but the systems color things too much. I think the sound would be quickly fatiguing for me. It's as if the systems are trying too hard... I like something "drier" (that's probably not going to help), with more "control".

I can see how some would like these, but it's not really what I would qualify as "natural sound" at least not as it is heard on the videos.

Commenting on videos is difficult. Maybe the sound in the room is completely different?

This is a personal point of view - we are all looking for different things.

Lagonda said:

When the horns blow for armageddon yes, but not before !

Click to expand...

The sound of Heimdall´s horn

Rensselaer said:

Do you believe David himself actually meant to say “accurate”, or that he agrees that “accurate” is fully interchangeable with “natural” for describing the music character one can achieve by going through all that you went through in building your ultimate system, or do you believe your casting off of Magico’s and transistor amps to obtain better sound rubbed those with such the wrong way and all this stuff about Accuracy is just attempts to shoot holes in the process and choices you took to make a naturally-sounding world-class system (with horns and SET’s ).

Click to expand...

Am I reading too much between the lines here? IME most solid state amps ever made, while lower distortion, are not accurate because the distortion they make is easily heard as harshness and brightness, especially when you turn it up. Its a coloration plain and simple. It does not matter that the distortion is very low on paper because the ear doesn't care about that. Its tuned to be very sensitive to higher ordered harmonics- its more sensitive to them than almost anything else! So when this quality of the ear is ignored by designers and spec sheets, we get sound that isn't natural and certainly not accurate.

Ron Resnick said:

I second this. I never heard David talk in terms of "accurate." (I never talk in terms of "accurate" either.)

Click to expand...

Maybe you should to prevent confusion. In audio there is never a time where the two

hopkins said:

Yet every system you listen to that snare drum on is going to sound a little different...and none of them are really going to sound like the real thing!

Click to expand...

Unless they do.

Rensselaer said:

Exactly, Peter had upgraded all his adult life but didn’t get what he refers to as “natural” sound until he got rid of his solid state Pass Labs amplification, Magico speakers and expensive cables and replaced them with Lamm amplification, Vitavox corner horn speakers and plain cables. He always played vinyl, but made upgrades there as well.

Click to expand...

Obviously the prior setup wasn't accurate.

PeterA said:

Yes, like when someone told me my system could not possibly sound the way I describe it because of my SET amps. That was pretty contentious.

This thread is surely no safe space. I do my best to not make it woke.

Click to expand...

For the record, I have said the SETs don't work, which is different from sounding a certain way. I listed why SETs don't work but not all the reasons in the same place at the same time. That's all different from sounding a certain way.

My point has been that engineering should honor the subjective experience and rules of human hearing rather than trying to look good on paper. Once you accept that's a proper way to go, then it comes down to sorting out what's important. The one thing that SETs tend to get right is distortion vs frequency; that goes a really long way to preventing higher ordered harmonics from being audible. BTW, both the 2nd and 3rd harmonics can help bring out certain kinds of detail, such as sound stage information- a lot depends on the amplitude and phase of those harmonics. This is another thing that SETs often get right; but the sound isn't natural if its unable to accurately portray the signal in the groove (or digital file). That is why I think everyone should try their hand at on location recording since they will know how the recording is supposed to sound.

PeterA said:

Brad, I think bass quality is essential for natural sound. Bass extension flat to the lowest octave is not essential, in my view.

Click to expand...

Its hard, but if its right it certainly helps! Since I spent so much time around a string bass, and because the bass section was often near the percussion section I find it hard to take a system seriously if it isn't able to articulate the bottom octave. When we recorded Canto General back in the 1980s I made sure we had the biggest bass drum in the state and that it was set up properly. Even played quietly (ppp in the score) it still comes across. Systems that don't play that don't sound natural to me.

Rensselaer said:

Hi Tim,
I certainly agree with your last sentence, that we hear more similarly than differently, however I still suspect that there is a difference in how the sound we hear similarly is processed in our minds.

You said we each have human ears. Likewise we, baring injury of birth or accident, each have a nose and a tongue, with taste buds. Yet we all do not like the same foods, prepared in the same way. For instance, I love truffle-scented scrambled eggs on sourdough toast, whereas my wife can’t stand the smell of truffles.

Click to expand...

There are rules of human hearing shared by all who can hear. Their hearing might be impaired for some reason, but what they have follows the same rules. This is why we can have deciBels as a measure of sound pressure since the ear hears on a logarithmic scale. There are many such examples!

Kingrex said:

I believe that is why horns fell out of favor. Dont get me wrong, there are good horns out there. But most horns sound like horns. It has an appeal. It creates a sort of live, energetic sound. But its just a type of sound like any other sound. And it can be very offputting. It appears much more so than a system based upon dynamic drivers and powerful amps. It seems most people gravitate to the sound of dynamic drivers and powerful amps. I nyself gravitate to a horn type sound. But at the same time, I feel like I would not enjoy sitting in front of it every day. My wife especially. We sat in front of CH Precission and Wilson Yesterday. She likes it more than my open baffle and 40 watts of power.

Click to expand...

If it sounds like a horn its not a very good horn. Good horns challenge ESLs easily because they can be just as fast (if field coil powered) and lower distortion so more detailed- no sense of horns at all. Horn design is very critical and the older ones tend to have problems because of slight errors in the throat design and such because slide rules aren't as good as CAD for optimization. A good horn has no signature.

Horns are in use today for much the same reason as 80 years ago. Tube power is expensive so you have to make the most of it that you can. Add to that the fact that in the last 20 years there have been more tube amp producers in the US than there was in 1955. SETs really only make 20% or so usable power so horns are essential for if you really want to hear what they are about.

The vintage style horns are fun but I think you and I share the feeling in that I wouldn't want to have to live with one. But I have horns now because they are the best thing I've heard.

Rensselaer said:

I have heard Lowther horns “shout”

Click to expand...

Full range drivers aren't. To use them successfully you need a tweeter to correct for off axis tonality and a woofer to handle bass along with a crossover to keep bass out of the 'full range' driver so as to reduce distortion (which is very audible). At best they are extended range midrange drivers.

bonzo75 said:

Have you seen the high percent at Munich? And many are not even the good ones

Click to expand...

I don't think you can use Munich to make any compelling argument for horns. First, it is a EU trade show. Most homes in the EU counties have smaller spaces for the majority of folks who want to set up music reproduction systems. Horns are attractive to those buyers which speaks to the commercial success of horns in the EU that we do see here in the States. What is clear to anyone attending Munich is that a huge swath of the market that show caters to are distributors, dealers and retail customers in Asia including Japan, which also have smaller homes where horns may be a fine choice for room and budget. Second, have you heard the horns at Munich? Very few of them sounded anything remotely near "very good" and most were in shambles. It was quite clear that the worst sounding displays at Munich were extremely unimpressive high priced horn systems. In fact, aside from the Cessaro and Lorenzo exhibits, most deserved more ridicule than praise.

It's certainly your preogative to prefer horns. But you shouldn't cite Munich as an example to support your choice. After living in "horn world" for 3 days, I certainly came away less impressed than I would have hoped. I'll bet you would have as well.

marty said:

I don't think you can use Munich to make any compelling argument for horns. First, it is a EU trade show. Most homes in the EU counties have smaller spaces for the majority of folks who want to set up music reproduction systems. Horns are attractive to those buyers which speaks to the commercial success of horns in the EU that we do see here in the States. What is clear to anyone attending Munich is that a huge swath of the market that show caters to are distributors, dealers and retail customers in Asia including Japan, which also have smaller homes where horns may be a fine choice for room and budget. Second, have you heard the horns at Munich? Very few of them sounded anything remotely near "very good" and most were in shambles. It was quite clear that the worst sounding displays at Munich were extremely unimpressive high priced horn systems. In fact, aside from the Cessaro and Lorenzo exhibits, most deserved more ridicule than praise.

It's certainly your preogative to prefer horns. But you shouldn't cite Munich as an example to support your choice. After living in "horn world" for 3 days, I certainly came away less impressed than I would have hoped. I'll bet you would have as well.

Click to expand...

Marty, why do you think horns would be suitable for mostly smaller spaces? They usually take up a good amount of space.

Al M. said:

Marty, why do you think horns would be suitable for mostly smaller spaces? They usually take up a good amount of space.

Click to expand...

Short delay reflections, such as those from a side wall, are interpreted by the ear as harshness. Horns have controlled directivity so you can minimize side-wall reflections so as to get smoother sound, even in a smaller room.