Thanks Mike. I still believe TT's are much more vibe prone than tape decks. Cartridge voltages are millivolts and as such more prone to the adverse effects of uncontrolled vibration/resonance to a greater degree..
Best...
1/2 inch Studer bliss
- Thread starter Mike Lavigne
- Start date
Thanks Mike. I still believe TT's are much more vibe prone than tape decks. Cartridge voltages are millivolts and as such more prone to the adverse effects of uncontrolled vibration/resonance to a greater degree..
Best...
yes; for 6 years i owned a fully reconditioned Ampex ATR-102. i listened to it along side my Studer A-820. i sold it 2 years ago to help fund my speaker and amp upgrade.
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Hi
Has anyone ever conducted a comparison between tapes with machines with same heads and pre-amp ( the electronics in the tape , correct me for the term pre-amp if needs be). I sincerely believe for the most part we are not discussing the same things if the heads and electronics are different. I am also with Christian on his contention that vibration affect RTR much less than TT ... On that same with TT BTW. Inferences of a table being superior (or inferior) when cartridges , arms and even position in the room are different...
Has anyone ever conducted a comparison between tapes with machines with same heads and pre-amp ( the electronics in the tape , correct me for the term pre-amp if needs be). I sincerely believe for the most part we are not discussing the same things if the heads and electronics are different. I am also with Christian on his contention that vibration affect RTR much less than TT ... On that same with TT BTW. Inferences of a table being superior (or inferior) when cartridges , arms and even position in the room are different...
the issues here are;
chassis -> tape path -> heads -> output electronics (tape repro preamp).
there are 'non-standard' high resolution heads.
tape path includes reel hubs, guides, lifters, rollers, etc.
output electronics can be the (1) internal stock output electronics, (2) some sort of factory option such as the 'trafoless' cards in my 1/2" Studer which are a factory option which eliminates the output transformer of the stock Studer output electronics, (3) modified internal electronics (UHA, de Paravicini) and (4) custom outboard output electronics such as the King-Cello, the various Bottlehead products, the Doshi, the Manley, etc. etc.
regarding fitting the King Cello into my system it took three tries to get the King Cello right for my system from an EQ perspective with the Studer heads and in terms of balance and so it worked with my 'zeel' 50 ohm darTZeel preamp interface. so when I hear about opinions on the King Cello I just roll my eyes. this stuff is not plug and play.
does the EQ of the output electronics work ideally for the EQ of the particular heads? and then does the output of the custom output electronics interface properly with your system preamp?
using custom output electronics introduces the variable of whether you have a switch to choose the internal or custom output signal path or whether it's hard wired, then does the custom output electronics have the ability to adjust to the test tones on the tape? or do you rely on an anticipated narrow band of tape EQ?
and then there is the gain of the tape itself and whether the heads of the deck can handle (take proper advantage) of the choice of tape. typically master recorders (the heads) can handle higher gain tape than consumer/prosumer decks which is a challenge for sellers such as The Tape Project to find the right compromise of gain across the board of users without dumbing down the tapes to the lowest common denominator.
so when you are comparing one deck to another there are lots of variables to consider to figure out what you are comparing......even using the same tape side by side. to get the full picture of where various decks and electronics stand takes some time and experience since there are so many issues. everything is context related.
thankfully since the Tape Project started in 2007 most tapes that are sold are modern formulation and IEC EQ with similar gain settings so adjusting for test tones can be mostly a non-issue unless you have vintage tapes that you are using.
in my particular case I have my opinions about how the 1/4" Studer A-820 standard stock output compares to the Ampex ATR-102 standard stock output, and then how the A820 -> King Cello compares to the stock ATR-102. since I did not have the ATR-102 modified with a direct out switch I never tried it with the King Cello. I did compare both of those machines with both a stock Technics RS-1500 and the de Paravicini modified Technics, as well as with my Nagra T and IV-S. as well as how the Studer A820 1/4" and 1/2" compares both with and without the King Cello. and then I compared how the A-820 sounded with the stock output into my 'old' darTZeel preamp (with has transformers on the XLR inputs) and the new darTZeel preamp which eliminated the transformer on the XLR input and sounds much better and then how that compares to using the King Cello.
I've also tried 4-5 other custom tape output electronics in my system that I did not keep.
and that is just my experience in my own system as to how things seem to work.
so many ways to look at things.
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Bruce B
WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
So here is the tip of the iceberg of what MikeL is talking about.
Here are 3 sets of heads for my machines and everyone sounds different. starting from top to bottom:
DIN/Butterfly heads
Flux Magnetics ER Heads
Stock NAB heads
Here are 3 sets of heads for my machines and everyone sounds different. starting from top to bottom:
DIN/Butterfly heads
Flux Magnetics ER Heads
Stock NAB heads
looks like an A80
any comments on the differences in sound?
I have the butterfly heads, but have another stack spare, also with butterflies, and thought about maybe getting a custom longlife 15ips head from Mastertapesoundlab...
best
Leif
Bruce B
WBF Founding Member, Pro Audio Production Member
Yes, I have (4) A80RC Mk II machines. The headstacks are quite different. The middle stack also has the Flux Magnetics Record head as well.
In order of preference, I'd say the Butterfly heads are the ones I like the least. They were created so the BBC could play stereo and mono tapes without switching the headstack. They have 3dB more gain than the stock heads and don't have the imaging/stereo separation that the stock headstack has. I mainly switch between the stock heads and the Flux heads. The stock heads have better body and more low end punch and the Flux heads have better mids and treble with a cleaner bass. Just depends on what your preference is. If I come across a tape that needs more bottom end and body, then I use the stock heads. If I have a tape that has lost some of the high end or needs more mid clarity, then I use the Flux heads.
Not all A820's were equal. There were a lot of hardware refinement, thus MkII-I and Mk-II, of A820' transport, and HX-pro in audio part. Anyone of A820 owners can chime in the sonic difference between mk1 and mk2? Who can share the painstaking process to bring an early A820 to the most up to date A820 mk-II?
I replaced many 74LS chips to 74AS/F/74ALS in my A810 for fun, just because I see those parts were laying around. It is a great machine! Just wondering who had disassemble A810/A820's firmware and crack open its secret? Or a 27513 upgrade for A810's MPU?
Y.-J. Wu
I replaced many 74LS chips to 74AS/F/74ALS in my A810 for fun, just because I see those parts were laying around. It is a great machine! Just wondering who had disassemble A810/A820's firmware and crack open its secret? Or a 27513 upgrade for A810's MPU?
Y.-J. Wu
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agree.
obviously, there are variables in basic things such as heads, tape path condition, and whether the caps have been updated or not. then you have issues of Mk1 and Mk2 software, and then you have variable's such as the 'trafoless output cards' and direct out head switches and custom output electronics. I'm no expert other than my 7 years of ownership with 2 of these magnificent beasts.
we are fortunate that Ki Choi spent a few years working with eprom software design in the 80's (I hope I am describing that correctly) and so has been able to deal with Studer software Mk1 and Mk2 issues as they use that same technology.
I have been fortunate that my 1/4" machine spent 8 months with one A-820 expert, Fred Thal, who did all the right stuff to it and it has operated flawlessly for the last 7 years. it's a Mk1 machine with stock output.
my 1/2" A-820 is a Mk2 machine and Ki Choi has gone thru and done all new caps and bearings and made sure it is up to spec. this machine has the transformerless output 'trafoless' audio output cards.
both my A-820's have Ki Choi installed direct out head switches for custom audio output.
I cannot comment on the sonic differences between Mk1 and Mk2 since I've not heard identical machines with only that difference. maybe Ki can comment?
as far as whether one would want to move from Mk1 to Mk2, and what that involves, I have not a clue.
but no doubt that not every A-820 out there has had the care and feeding it deserves.
Thank you for sharing your experience of A820's. Are you running both mk-I and Mk-II with latest software, including spooling motor and capstan motor?
I also want to thank Ki for sharing images of latest A820 software. Right now I am waiting to get my own EPROM writer for burning 27513. I plan to set pin 11/12 D0/D1 to proper page number first, then set pin 27 WE low, select proper content and write the code by treating 27513 as a 27128. Set pin 1 low to reset the page. Four writings are required to complete the process. This is my guess. I hope it will work.
BTW, you mentioned the tape tension had to be adjusted at 1/4" 1/2" headstack swap. Then the software can not recognize this part of head change. It is interesting that spooling controller MPU has its own SRAM, but no battery backing up its memory.
All STUDER's decks from A810 to A816 do not have any scrape filter roller between record and reproduce heads. That belongs to A80's.
Y.-J Wu
I also want to thank Ki for sharing images of latest A820 software. Right now I am waiting to get my own EPROM writer for burning 27513. I plan to set pin 11/12 D0/D1 to proper page number first, then set pin 27 WE low, select proper content and write the code by treating 27513 as a 27128. Set pin 1 low to reset the page. Four writings are required to complete the process. This is my guess. I hope it will work.
BTW, you mentioned the tape tension had to be adjusted at 1/4" 1/2" headstack swap. Then the software can not recognize this part of head change. It is interesting that spooling controller MPU has its own SRAM, but no battery backing up its memory.
All STUDER's decks from A810 to A816 do not have any scrape filter roller between record and reproduce heads. That belongs to A80's.
Y.-J Wu
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