Myles,
Was the '76 magical? Perhaps someday we can compare the two years--LOL. If I get a good acoustical ROI that puts a smile on my face I am happy, even if it does not fit my sense of related logic.
Was the '76 magical? Perhaps someday we can compare the two years--LOL. If I get a good acoustical ROI that puts a smile on my face I am happy, even if it does not fit my sense of related logic.
I am usually reluctant to report about a new change to my system because it is easy to be swayed by the difference and call it better when all it is is different. Plus something as tender and volatile as tubes with all of those filaments and pins no doubt must take time to break in to show their colors.
Well my 6h30p-DR's arrived today from Parts Connexion. They were packed well arrived as promised with each tube box bearing four separate measurements for the tube inside. I paid a whopping $10+ to have the PC guys exert some extra care to get me the best quartet possible and ended up paying $264 for the quartet after the extra $10 and less the 20% sale discount. I did some serious listening for about 90 minutes prior to the tube change, using a number of different sources from BD, CD, apple-lossless and FIOS, but no phono. I swapped the tubes and powered up the preamp (BAT 32SE) without changing the 6J19's current tubes so that I could hear just the change that the supertubes would make. My preamp was set to the FIOS input with "This Is It" playing when I powered it back up after the tube swap which including cool down time and meticulous slow tube replacement to insure no oils on the new Russian babies for a total down time of about 45 minutes. I happened to have my back to the system 15 feet away and way off axis when the start-up mute switched off and I knew in 5 seconds that the change was already the right thing.
No they tubes were not at their best by any means, but their speed, especially their fast decay, was instantly apparent, as was their quietness. Within 5 minutes of focused listening to some fairly challenging CD material including Bob's Diner on DMP, several things started to happen that were undeniable----the sound stage was much bigger right to left and front to back. The ability to place the instruments in that space was much easier than before and became easier with each passing minute, but the real impressive things were the following three: 1) I could hear nuances in the instruments, like internal cymbal resonances, the sound of reeds on the saxes and clarinets and especially the drums. Some harshness, albeit minimal that was present with the Sovteks was now gone and the Sovteks still had half of their life left; 2) the bass was dramatically better and blended much better with my sub, without any level, frequency or phase changes (maybe just lucky on this one); and 3) the big one, I started seeing the instruments more and saw the speakers and equipment less. Yes, I mean that I literally started seeing instruments and no there were no drugs or alcohol involved. This does not surprise me because of the way the brain integrates artificial sensory input- the more accurately the input, the more likely the brain is to buy it as real and thus start to fill in the gaps, producing some output cues that we have learned are present from previous similar experiences.
So now for the summary after a mere 90 minutes on the new tubes and a relisten to same music prior to the tube change. I am seasoned enough at this to know that I do not have an accurate reflection of where this change is going, but I have also done this enough and am a sufficiently seasoned and knowledgeable listener to have a basic sense of break-in progressions. Based on what I have heard so far, I will say that the change I got with my hardware when I substituted the Reflector 6H30P-DR's for the stock Sovtek 6H30's produced a more significant and positive change than any other equipment substitution in any of my systems, other than when I changed speakers, like from Tympani 3A's to CLS's to Dunlavy SC5's to Wisdom M-75 references in a heavily customized listening space that was designed for planars and dipoles. The change has already been bigger than going from Nordost Quattro Fils to Valhalla throughout my entire system, going from a Spectral preamp to ARC and from one ARC Ref preamp to another (4 progressive models), etc.
I would not be making these statements so early because I know it is premature and I really only care about what my system sounds like to me, but I know that the 20% off sale at Parts Connexion ends Friday and this change is too good to pass on if you care about these types of things. I will share my thoughts after about 72 hours break in and then will go to the next step, when I insert the HiFi Tuning El Supremo Fuse that I bought to see if it can make a difference to justify that fact that I paid about 60 times what a conventional fuse costs for this experiment. While I hope that it works, the reality is that I really do not care because I am already so blown away by the difference from the tubes. I will also report later if changing the 6J19's makes a difference, but there does not seem to be an upgrade path on that front that I am aware of.
Well my 6h30p-DR's arrived today from Parts Connexion. They were packed well arrived as promised with each tube box bearing four separate measurements for the tube inside. I paid a whopping $10+ to have the PC guys exert some extra care to get me the best quartet possible and ended up paying $264 for the quartet after the extra $10 and less the 20% sale discount. I did some serious listening for about 90 minutes prior to the tube change, using a number of different sources from BD, CD, apple-lossless and FIOS, but no phono. I swapped the tubes and powered up the preamp (BAT 32SE) without changing the 6J19's current tubes so that I could hear just the change that the supertubes would make. My preamp was set to the FIOS input with "This Is It" playing when I powered it back up after the tube swap which including cool down time and meticulous slow tube replacement to insure no oils on the new Russian babies for a total down time of about 45 minutes. I happened to have my back to the system 15 feet away and way off axis when the start-up mute switched off and I knew in 5 seconds that the change was already the right thing.
No they tubes were not at their best by any means, but their speed, especially their fast decay, was instantly apparent, as was their quietness. Within 5 minutes of focused listening to some fairly challenging CD material including Bob's Diner on DMP, several things started to happen that were undeniable----the sound stage was much bigger right to left and front to back. The ability to place the instruments in that space was much easier than before and became easier with each passing minute, but the real impressive things were the following three: 1) I could hear nuances in the instruments, like internal cymbal resonances, the sound of reeds on the saxes and clarinets and especially the drums. Some harshness, albeit minimal that was present with the Sovteks was now gone and the Sovteks still had half of their life left; 2) the bass was dramatically better and blended much better with my sub, without any level, frequency or phase changes (maybe just lucky on this one); and 3) the big one, I started seeing the instruments more and saw the speakers and equipment less. Yes, I mean that I literally started seeing instruments and no there were no drugs or alcohol involved. This does not surprise me because of the way the brain integrates artificial sensory input- the more accurately the input, the more likely the brain is to buy it as real and thus start to fill in the gaps, producing some output cues that we have learned are present from previous similar experiences.
So now for the summary after a mere 90 minutes on the new tubes and a relisten to same music prior to the tube change. I am seasoned enough at this to know that I do not have an accurate reflection of where this change is going, but I have also done this enough and am a sufficiently seasoned and knowledgeable listener to have a basic sense of break-in progressions. Based on what I have heard so far, I will say that the change I got with my hardware when I substituted the Reflector 6H30P-DR's for the stock Sovtek 6H30's produced a more significant and positive change than any other equipment substitution in any of my systems, other than when I changed speakers, like from Tympani 3A's to CLS's to Dunlavy SC5's to Wisdom M-75 references in a heavily customized listening space that was designed for planars and dipoles. The change has already been bigger than going from Nordost Quattro Fils to Valhalla throughout my entire system, going from a Spectral preamp to ARC and from one ARC Ref preamp to another (4 progressive models), etc.
I would not be making these statements so early because I know it is premature and I really only care about what my system sounds like to me, but I know that the 20% off sale at Parts Connexion ends Friday and this change is too good to pass on if you care about these types of things. I will share my thoughts after about 72 hours break in and then will go to the next step, when I insert the HiFi Tuning El Supremo Fuse that I bought to see if it can make a difference to justify that fact that I paid about 60 times what a conventional fuse costs for this experiment. While I hope that it works, the reality is that I really do not care because I am already so blown away by the difference from the tubes. I will also report later if changing the 6J19's makes a difference, but there does not seem to be an upgrade path on that front that I am aware of.
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Thanks Russ! Keep us informed on how they sound with more hours....I think they'll get richer with playing and not sound quite as detailed.
Going to try mine in the near future in the ART amp's driver section.
Thanks Myles, I will keep your comments in mind as I continue to evaluate. I would like to share an occurrence that has shed further light on this issue. As luck would have it, one of my new tubes started to go South, becoming very noisy and sputtering. In the process of isolating it, I determined which was the problem, called Parts Connexion, who has already started the process to replace it using the measured parameters of the tube in question.
What was really interesting, was I substituted one of the Sovteks for the bad Reflector and kept the other three Reflectors in place and I cannot comfortably listen because the the sound stage between the two channels is so unbalanced that I cannot buy any reality from the end result. So until the replacement tube arrives, I will use all Sovteks, because cohesion is more important than quality, or what am I really saying, but do not realize it yet, perceived quality?.
What was really interesting, was I substituted one of the Sovteks for the bad Reflector and kept the other three Reflectors in place and I cannot comfortably listen because the the sound stage between the two channels is so unbalanced that I cannot buy any reality from the end result. So until the replacement tube arrives, I will use all Sovteks, because cohesion is more important than quality, or what am I really saying, but do not realize it yet, perceived quality?.
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My venture into 6H30 experiments continues with serendipitous bonuses. As I posted in my previous post, due to a bad tube I have been running 1 Sovtek 6H30 and 3 Reflector 6H30P-DR supertubes in my BAT 32SE and it is painful because it feels like the image is rotated about 30 degrees back from the channel with the Sovtek. I am not going to be so foolish to say that is represents anything about the sound of the Sovteks versus the Reflectors other than to state that the tubes definitely sound different.
So my conclusion is that tubes are much like cables---you choose the ones that compliment the way you want your system to sound because more than better or worse, they sound different!!!
So my conclusion is that tubes are much like cables---you choose the ones that compliment the way you want your system to sound because more than better or worse, they sound different!!!
Hi Russ,
I've ended my experiment with the DR in the driver stage of my ART amps for the time being. Put 9 hours on them today and overall, prefer the current batch of cj selected 6N30P-EB to the NOS DRs. I'm not going to argue that the DRs may need more break-in, but don't think their basic character will change. The DRs were more detailed and airy/extended but also brighter. They were maybe a tad more dynamics in some areas but seemed to lack punch in the mid and upper bass area as well as not being as focussed as the EBs.
The EBs OTOH were warmer, had more midrange presence, transparent, focussed and just were smoother sounding (and easier on the ears)
Myles, Your experience with the NOS DRs is similar to mine, and I concur that their character does not change substantially over time. In my BAT preamp, 2 pair of new production and 2 pair of NOS 6H30 provides the optimal balance. This gives the treble extension and dynamics of the NOS version, with the linearity, balance, and midrange of the EBs.
Well, now that my bad 6H30p-DR has been replaced with a good one, I am able to conduct the next phase of my ongoing experiment with with new production versus NOS 6H30's. All that I can say is that inserting the missing 6H30p-DR and removing the lone Sovtek 6h30 produced immediate and somewhat dramatic results. While clearly the tube was initially a bit raw sounding in the highs, the mid bass and deep bass instantly became more pronounced and identifiable. The highs smoothed out within a day.
However, what was most notable and similar to what I commented on when I first inserted the 6H30p-DR's was the sound stage changes. Quite frankly, I am shocked that others have not commented on this because it is anything but subtle. It is so much more three dimensional and specific, with incredible localization of individual components.
So, seemingly going against the grain of this forum, it is my opinion that at least in my system, this tube upgrade is one of the best sonic bargains I am aware of. I am going to be sufficiently bold to say that I think that at least with my BAT VK 32-SE the change is a great one, based on what I hear AND because Victor Khomenko, a man of massive understatement with regard to the sound of his components also felt that it would improve the sound in ALL aspects.
However, what was most notable and similar to what I commented on when I first inserted the 6H30p-DR's was the sound stage changes. Quite frankly, I am shocked that others have not commented on this because it is anything but subtle. It is so much more three dimensional and specific, with incredible localization of individual components.
So, seemingly going against the grain of this forum, it is my opinion that at least in my system, this tube upgrade is one of the best sonic bargains I am aware of. I am going to be sufficiently bold to say that I think that at least with my BAT VK 32-SE the change is a great one, based on what I hear AND because Victor Khomenko, a man of massive understatement with regard to the sound of his components also felt that it would improve the sound in ALL aspects.
Probably the cheapest audio experiment I have conducted that produced major benefit in the past several decades. Now that there are close to 40 hours on the new tube, I find that I have to re-aim the left channel speaker (the channel of the replaced tube) in order to get the sound stage right. I had to toe the speaker in about an additional 5 degrees to get the proper image, another symptom, in my opinion, of the dramatically superior imaging of the NOS tubes.
Off to CES tomorrow to explore what is new and, most importantly, to check out the new Magnepan 3.7, which I expect to be quite the performer at any price and especially impressive considering its price point.
Off to CES tomorrow to explore what is new and, most importantly, to check out the new Magnepan 3.7, which I expect to be quite the performer at any price and especially impressive considering its price point.
Sam,
I have a BAT VK 32 SE and was amazed by the benefit from adding a HiFi Tuning Supremo fuse. Be sure to insert with the arrow on the logo pointing into the fuse holder. I was amazed at the difference and would not have believed it if I had not heard myself.
Russ
I have a BAT VK 32 SE and was amazed by the benefit from adding a HiFi Tuning Supremo fuse. Be sure to insert with the arrow on the logo pointing into the fuse holder. I was amazed at the difference and would not have believed it if I had not heard myself.
Russ
Hi Russ,
I have contemplated tuning fuses...perhaps, for the Rex. My four monoblocks would require 16 fuses...not so sure, there.
Here are some further thoughts on the 6H30-DRs. Now I don't know any of this to be fact; it's all supposition--but what I do know is what I've now heard with these tubes.
A while back Russ and I disagreed on on the sound of the NOS Russian 6H30-DR SuperTube. In retrospect, I'm now wondering if our differences in opinion are due in part to 1) the Parts Connexion tubes being relabelled Sovteks and 2) tube to tube sonic variability. The question of "fake" DR tubes with black instead of bronze lettering came up a while ago on Audioasylum and Victor Khomenko commented that the lettering was suspicious (as Sovtek uses black lettering) but that the lack of the OTK was not necessarily an indicator as not all 6H30-DR tubes had this mark. Also according to Victor, 6H30-DR production stopped after 1993 so anything labelled 1994 and beyond is a fake. In addition, Viktor mentioned he didn't think that Sovtek got their act building 6H30pis until 2004.
The reason I bring this up: I had a stock 6H30pi fail in my amp the other day. I put one of the backup DRs into the amp until I received the new tubes from cj. Immediately the system became, as I had previously observed with the DR version, almost unbearably bright. Cymbals were just harsh and hard. Upper strings were really edgy. Instrumental palpabilty was markedly reduced; this change was really unmistakable since the Allnic phono stage really toops the charts when it comes to recreating the body of an instrument or performer.
Then two days later just for the hell of it, and reaching a point where I could really no longer listen to the system, I decided for the hell of it to replace the DR SuperTube in the amp with the second backup DR I had in house. Immediately, everything got better -- and the system now sounded better than with the stock 6H30pi tube. No brightness, voices had far more body, instruments had more texture, one could hear more intonation in the string section, etc. than with the 6H30pi version, etc. So if nothing else, there's some variability in from tube to tube--and still wonder if the PC tubes are "real" DRs.
As a result, I think I'm going to try another source of 6h30DR that will cost more significantly more but are definitely real to answer the question.
A while back Russ and I disagreed on on the sound of the NOS Russian 6H30-DR SuperTube. In retrospect, I'm now wondering if our differences in opinion are due in part to 1) the Parts Connexion tubes being relabelled Sovteks and 2) tube to tube sonic variability. The question of "fake" DR tubes with black instead of bronze lettering came up a while ago on Audioasylum and Victor Khomenko commented that the lettering was suspicious (as Sovtek uses black lettering) but that the lack of the OTK was not necessarily an indicator as not all 6H30-DR tubes had this mark. Also according to Victor, 6H30-DR production stopped after 1993 so anything labelled 1994 and beyond is a fake. In addition, Viktor mentioned he didn't think that Sovtek got their act building 6H30pis until 2004.
The reason I bring this up: I had a stock 6H30pi fail in my amp the other day. I put one of the backup DRs into the amp until I received the new tubes from cj. Immediately the system became, as I had previously observed with the DR version, almost unbearably bright. Cymbals were just harsh and hard. Upper strings were really edgy. Instrumental palpabilty was markedly reduced; this change was really unmistakable since the Allnic phono stage really toops the charts when it comes to recreating the body of an instrument or performer.
Then two days later just for the hell of it, and reaching a point where I could really no longer listen to the system, I decided for the hell of it to replace the DR SuperTube in the amp with the second backup DR I had in house. Immediately, everything got better -- and the system now sounded better than with the stock 6H30pi tube. No brightness, voices had far more body, instruments had more texture, one could hear more intonation in the string section, etc. than with the 6H30pi version, etc. So if nothing else, there's some variability in from tube to tube--and still wonder if the PC tubes are "real" DRs.
As a result, I think I'm going to try another source of 6h30DR that will cost more significantly more but are definitely real to answer the question.
Hi Myles,
Please keep us informed...I was considering pcX and noticed the cost had risen from ~$80/6H30-DR to ~$100/valve. That's my threshold for valves sourced from the former Eastern Block countries...all of my 6H30-DR's have been sourced directly from BAT or eastern europe.
Yep, the price of the 6H30s at PCX did go up. I remember paying $75/tube. Know Russ loves the 6H30-DRs he put in his BAT preamp. I used the DRs in a different situation (driver stage of amp) and in different manufacturer's gear (cj). So that might make a difference.
OTOH, PCX is having a 15% off sale til end of the month so can get the tubes for $85. I guess one could try and if don't like the results, speak to them.
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