A Bright Shining Lie…Why ignoring an inconvenient truth is stifling system performance a blog from Roy Gregory

[andromedaaudio]

"Good bass" and truly full range are two very different things.

They can go hand in hand .
But we can argue with words on a forum which doesnt bring us any closer .

Ps I have heard an enormous amount of " Full Range" (very expensive) subwoofer set ups in my audiophile life already , spare me the results

 

[Al M.]

They can go hand in hand .
But we can argue with words on a forum which doesnt bring us any closer .

Ps I have heard an enormous amount of " Full Range" (very expensive) subwoofer set ups in my audiophile life already , spare me the results

Sure, subwoofers can easily be set up badly. But they can also be set up well.

 

[sbnx]

Oh no….we are about to have another subwoofer thread.

 

[andromedaaudio]

You can blame Al for it , he pulled them into the mix .

The best subwoofer set ups i ve expirienced over time where disconnected ones with a tablecloth on top plus some good coffee and cookies

 

[stehno]

mm

So are we to assume that you are fine with the idea of using speaker repositioning to compensate for components upstream? Every time a zealot audiophile tries a different power-cord or fuse, speakers need to be moved to ”optimize” the sound? The earth may not be flat, and thinking outside the box is a good creative process, but come on, we need to stop the foolishness somewhere!

For those that want to constrain it to amplifiers, please explain the logic there? If a device makes an aural difference (either for the better or for worse) then by definition, these components and devices are also altering the “spectral balance”. No matter how you slice it, the idea and practice, of speaker repositioning to compensate for ”spectral balance”, are dumb and for a professional reviewer to make this part of their equipment assessments and evaluations it really speaks loudly of their lack of understanding of electro-acoustics and the scientific process. Acousticians are practical people that base their work more on acquired knowledge and practical experience as opposed to theory, physics and engineering so they typically do not know in-depth the forces at work, I will stop there in an effort to be more polite.

Well said. For those still unsure of Gregory's actions, I would ask the following....

Would it seem any more / less absurd if instead of Gregory moving speakers in the midde of evaluating an amplifier, he chose to install room acoustic treatments in the middle of evaluating an amp?

After all, both actions remain squarely on the acoustical side of the fence as both directly impact the speaker / room acoustic interface quality. Hence, both have zero to do directly with any alterations up stream, electronic or otherwise.

If you have to pay someone to come set-up and “optimize” your system….then perhaps you are in the wrong hobby and it’s time to find something else that you understand better.

The same thought crossed my mind more than once.

 

[andromedaaudio]

I move my speakers also around especially if i bought new gear and sometimes just because i m bored
Its a cheap trick .
I personally don t think its a bad idea for certain people to hire a set up specialist , not all are "audio specialists" like on WBF. lol.

 

[RoyGregory]

As I have said many times before I am a believer in the system and the set up of the system. When I do try something new I do insert it into my system and listen. If it is something I like I can ususally tell pretty quickly. I cant do this since I am used to what I have set up and purchased and how it works in my sound room. If I decide to keep the new item I almost always then try to get as much out of the system as possible and many times that will involve tweaking the position of my speakers.
I do agree that this is virtually impossible to do on every single change a dealer for example would make or when doing A/B comparisions. System optimization requires time and patience ( for me). I can however hear the difference the new product made and then decide if I want it and how I may be able to get more out of the system with this new item that improoved what I am hearing.
I personally don't do many A/B comparisons anymore and don't change gear that often. I didn't need to go back and forth when I changed my DAC I could hear what I wanted very quickly. I have tried a few different amplifiers with my speakers and again hear what they do without having to move everything but if I was to try to optimize everything and swith it everyday I would be really tired of it very quickly.
I would like to ask Roy Gregory when he gets a new product and puts it in his system does he immediatley start moving his speakers? Does he wait until he makes some decision about the quality first? When is the proper time to make thse adjustments?
Thank you

Hi Elliot,

Thanks for the thoughtful response.
Product/system set-up is always an essential precursor to the start of the review process proper. As I was fond of saying to wannabe reviewers, “Your first responsibility is to the product: if you don’t extract it’s maximum possible performance, what use are your observations?” Most reviews involve more than one system scenario and those individual set ups need to be established in advance of commencing serious listening, so that once you enter into the auditioning stage of the process, swaps or changes can be executed reasonably rapidly.

To those who suggest this is impractical or inconvenient, I’d point out that this is a performance-based pursuit. In the case of high-end systems, seemingly small shifts and changes can have really profound affects on their performance – yet you are saying we shouldn’t take note of or implement these changes because they’re too troublesome? You either want the best performance/information available or you don’t, but I thought this was called What’s Best Forum…

 

[RoyGregory]

This subject about Roy’s revelation was brought up some months ago. So really there’s nothing new here.

And though the concept has the appearance that Roy is performing some due diligence, it also seems a bit silly at the same time. Do speakers sound different based on amplification? Yes. But speakers also sound different based on cabling, outlets, fuses, plugs, connectors, lifters, racks, as well as other components, etc. IOW, if Gregory’s revelation has merit, then why would he limit his repositioning of speakers only to amplifier changes?

But here’s where I think Gregory’s hypothesis doesn’t hold water. Though speakers will reflect everything up the chain, they simply cannot perform at their optimal unless there exists a superior interface or a superior acoustic coupling with the room itself. IOW, a speaker’s input signal may be electrical but its output is acoustical and therefore, its greatest dependency is its acoustic interface with the room.

And though Gregory may think he’s been enlightened to a new revelation with his ingenuity, I suspect the only real revelation is that his speakers’ prior placement/positioning were not as superior as he initially suspected.

That said, my limited experience leads me to think there exists one single absolute superior placement position for a speaker within a given room for that speaker to perform at its absolute optimal - think pitcher’s mound at the ball park. While there also exists an infinitesimally less superior speaker placement positions, think infield, outfield, ball park, parking lot, etc such that a speaker performs at less than its absolute optimal for that room.

Proof of this is that there exists a very real type of acoustic noise floor threshold established by the quality of this interface between speaker and room. When the interface quality is improved, we hear more bass notes and the bass notes we’re already used to hearing become tighter, deeper, quicker, more well-defined, etc. Not to mention that the more superior this acoustic interface, the more balanced, rich, warm, and flat out more musical the entire playback presentation. And vice versa when the speaker / room interface quality is worsened. This is all regardless of electronics up the chain because this speaker/room interface is acoustical in nature, not electronic.

Hence, I suspect when Gregory moves a speaker after an amplifier upgrade, and if the movement causes genuine improvements, then he most likely is simply placing the speakers a bit closer to the optimal pitcher’s mound position.

And though the new amplifier might improve bass and other sonic characteristics, if Gregory moving the speakers because of the new amp causing a genuine improvement, I would also suspect that if the old amplifier was re-installed, the sound would still benefit from the latest speaker movement.

Just as Lavigne mentioned, for many of us, locating a genuinely superior speaker placement position can take weeks, months, even years. Besides, how could one ever truly know that they’ve actually found THE optimal speaker placement position anyway?

Should we always be seeking our speaker’s optimal position within its room for optimal levels of musicality? Absolutely, as that’s what this hobby is all about. But given Gregory’s hypothesis and in light of the above, I have my doubts that Gregory possessing a superior knowledge of speaker placement and/or its import and since accuracy and stability would seem crucial to any product review, I would think the time to reposition speakers is not during a product review.

In summation, I’m inclined to think besides the possibility of creating yet one more preconceived narrative, Gregory is doing little more than potentially compromising the integrity of his reviews when he acts on this concept during an amplifier evaluation. Which if true has the potential to mislead readers into thinking the amplifier under review is potentially something other than his review might claim.

Again, because changing cables, outlets, racks, other components, etc, will all cause not-too-dissimilar sonic changes at the speaker, I’d venture that if Gregory takes his hypothesis seriously, he should be entirely consistent by moving his speakers every time he ever made any change to his system. Simply because speakers are incapable of discriminating between which objects are causing them to sound better. Whether it’s an amplifier or anything else.

A bright shining lie? Quite possibly.

So, I guess you missed the line that reads,

“You change anything that impacts the system’s spectral balance, and you will disturb the speaker/room relationship.”

Oh – and the 450-word description of the corrective action required after a speaker cable change: a change from one cable in a company’s range to the model above.

Despite this you still feel qualified to speculate (none to positively) on my practice and competence, the first of which you clearly don’t understand and the second of which is outside your experience. You go on to propound a theory that, because you believe that there is only one optimum position for a speaker in any one room, suggests that each new set-up simply reflects an improvement over a previously inadequate one. Yet, if that were the case, then in the course of conducting ABA listening (the generally preferred approach) the inherent superiority of the “new” position would quickly become apparent with the original amp. The way this works is simple. Each amp has a related speaker position, arrived at through due diligence before serious listening commences. Listen to the system with amp B and the speaker in the appropriate position. Now, if you want to compare system performance against the same system with amp A, swap the amps, listen and while listening adjust speaker position to optimise siting for that amp. Now you are ready to make a system comparison. It’s called checks and balances and you are going to notice if the system with amp A sounds better with the speaker positioned for amp B

What you did get right is that the relationship between the amp and the speaker is electrical, between the speaker and the room acoustic. That acoustic output has to be balanced against the characteristics of the room’s acoustic – especially at low frequencies. So, unless you believe – like Quad – that changing the amplifier (or anything else in the system for that matter) has absolutely no affect on the speaker’s acoustic output, changes upstream are going to necessitate an adjustment in speaker position.

I’m guessing you also missed the lines,

“But you don’t need to take my word for it. Try it for yourself. Put a different amplifier in your system and then see/hear what happens once you start to adjust speaker position. The reality of the situation is as demonstrable as it is obvious as it is inconvenient.”

So – did you try it?

I’ve been writing about this for over 15-years and I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve conducted public demonstrations dealing with it. You don’t stand in front of a room full of people unless you are pretty sure they’re going to hear the differences you are demonstrating. You certainly don’t do it repeatedly.

Just look at the comments here and they are divided between those who have tried this (or had it demonstrated to them) and realise the benefits – and those who KNOW it can’t work, feel threatened by the implications and therefore set out to prove that ‘fact’. I wonder which group are enjoying their music more? The whole point of this article was to provide readers with a way of better understanding system/room interactions, to achieve better sound from the system they have and to make better decisions moving forward. I don’t for a moment suppose that I have all or even most of the answers. Anybody doing what I do and interacting with as many designers and manufacturers as visit me, is always learning. I’m always interested in discussing ideas and process with informed practitioners. If you are interested in contributing to the discussion, it helps if you actually read and understand the original proposition.

That way, your contribution won’t be riddled with oversights and logical inconsistencies. The one rule that really governs audio is that we know a lot less than we think we do.

 

[jep123]

Roy;
So what you are really saying is that most reviewers do not serve their readers when reviewing equipment? Or the equipment so that it can perform as good as possible? In that they do not optimize their systems by changing the positions of their speakers etc when a new product comes in for a review? If they do this at all it is very seldom (if at all) mentioned in the reviews. I read TAS, Stereophile, Hifi + etc and I have not seen any mentioning of this, only that they insert a new component into their reference systems and listens. And draw their conclutions based on a few weeks of listening.

JP

 

[Carlos269]

So, I guess you missed the line that reads,

“You change anything that impacts the system’s spectral balance, and you will disturb the speaker/room relationship.”

Oh – and the 450-word description of the corrective action required after a speaker cable change: a change from one cable in a company’s range to the model above.

Despite this you still feel qualified to speculate (none to positively) on my practice and competence, the first of which you clearly don’t understand and the second of which is outside your experience. You go on to propound a theory that, because you believe that there is only one optimum position for a speaker in any one room, suggests that each new set-up simply reflects an improvement over a previously inadequate one. Yet, if that were the case, then in the course of conducting ABA listening (the generally preferred approach) the inherent superiority of the “new” position would quickly become apparent with the original amp. The way this works is simple. Each amp has a related speaker position, arrived at through due diligence before serious listening commences. Listen to the system with amp B and the speaker in the appropriate position. Now, if you want to compare system performance against the same system with amp A, swap the amps, listen and while listening adjust speaker position to optimise siting for that amp. Now you are ready to make a system comparison. It’s called checks and balances and you are going to notice if the system with amp A sounds better with the speaker positioned for amp B

What you did get right is that the relationship between the amp and the speaker is electrical, between the speaker and the room acoustic. That acoustic output has to be balanced against the characteristics of the room’s acoustic – especially at low frequencies. So, unless you believe – like Quad – that changing the amplifier (or anything else in the system for that matter) has absolutely no affect on the speaker’s acoustic output, changes upstream are going to necessitate an adjustment in speaker position.

I’m guessing you also missed the lines,

“But you don’t need to take my word for it. Try it for yourself. Put a different amplifier in your system and then see/hear what happens once you start to adjust speaker position. The reality of the situation is as demonstrable as it is obvious as it is inconvenient.”

So – did you try it?

I’ve been writing about this for over 15-years and I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve conducted public demonstrations dealing with it. You don’t stand in front of a room full of people unless you are pretty sure they’re going to hear the differences you are demonstrating. You certainly don’t do it repeatedly.

Just look at the comments here and they are divided between those who have tried this (or had it demonstrated to them) and realise the benefits – and those who KNOW it can’t work, feel threatened by the implications and therefore set out to prove that ‘fact’. I wonder which group are enjoying their music more? The whole point of this article was to provide readers with a way of better understanding system/room interactions, to achieve better sound from the system they have and to make better decisions moving forward. I don’t for a moment suppose that I have all or even most of the answers. Anybody doing what I do and interacting with as many designers and manufacturers as visit me, is always learning. I’m always interested in discussing ideas and process with informed practitioners. If you are interested in contributing to the discussion, it helps if you actually read and understand the original proposition.

That way, your contribution won’t be riddled with oversights and logical inconsistencies. The one rule that really governs audio is that we know a lot less than we think we do.

Wow, you are dancing around two different topics with your statements above; so let’s get some things straight and let’s be clear:

1. The original premise of the discussion was the validity of A/B reviews when the speakers have been repositioned between A/B comparisons. I think it is clear to everyone that this action invalidates any and all conclusions on the A/B equipment’s relative inherent qualities. So if you have been doing this for over 15 years, you have been doing it wrong all that time.

2. The acoustical excitation of a room by a speakers depending on upstream equipment: One of my favorite subjects as this is why “engineered” rooms do not deliver on their promise as “one size does not fit all”. In this case you do have it partially correct. Every component does not “alter the speaker/room relationship”. Let me explain, the dominant factor with the speaker/room interface is the speaker’s design and its resultant polar pattern or wave propagation pattern, hence line-arrays have minimal interaction with the ceiling and floors while omnidirectional designs have substantial interaction with all boundaries.

The part that you get right is that the speakers only conveys the electrical frequencies, and therefore acoustical excitations to the room, that the upstream equipment provides them. So all devices that alter the “spectral balance” will result in different room excitations; thus the fallacy with “engineered” rooms as they cannot be designed to be optimized for all excitations and every change has a different result.

The obvious point that you are missing is that while in theory “optimizing” the speakers’ position to ”complement” a new component’s frequency response or “spectral balance” might compensate for its deficiencies “in your room, with your speakers”, this does not benefit the readers at all and will lead to wrong conclusions. Furthermore, it implies that speaker repositioning is a practice that can be used to “optimize” every upstream component’s “spectral balance”, which is just plain ludicrous.

Mr. Gregory you have a lot to learn, please review some of my postings on this site as you may find them educational.

 

[Elliot G.]

Hi Elliot,

Thanks for the thoughtful response.
Product/system set-up is always an essential precursor to the start of the review process proper. As I was fond of saying to wannabe reviewers, “Your first responsibility is to the product: if you don’t extract it’s maximum possible performance, what use are your observations?” Most reviews involve more than one system scenario and those individual set ups need to be established in advance of commencing serious listening, so that once you enter into the auditioning stage of the process, swaps or changes can be executed reasonably rapidly.

To those who suggest this is impractical or inconvenient, I’d point out that this is a performance-based pursuit. In the case of high-end systems, seemingly small shifts and changes can have really profound affects on their performance – yet you are saying we shouldn’t take note of or implement these changes because they’re too troublesome? You either want the best performance/information available or you don’t, but I thought this was called What’s Best Forum…

Hi Roy,
Thank you for your reply and clarifying your process. I am always open to learning and to find ways to get more out of my system, in fact that is why I joined this forum in the first place. It does seem however that the internet has many different opinions .

 

[wil]

If you have to pay someone to come set-up and “optimize” your system….then perhaps you are in the wrong hobby and it’s time to find something else that you understand better.

I guess I'm not a "serious" audiophile. Thank God! I'd rather focus on music listening and let someone else figure out which way to move a 600 lb speaker a millimeter to the left or right...

 

[Carlos269]

I guess I'm not a "serious" audiophile. Thank God! I'd rather focus on music listening and let someone else figure out which way to move a 600 lb speaker a millimeter to the left or right...

You will get there eventually if you keep learning. My Wisdom Audio Adrenaline Rush with WAMM subwoofer towers weigh in excess of 1400 pounds per side so 600 isn’t very much. The question is, how do you know if the guy you paid did it right? And more importantly if he could have done better? And does he need to come back around for another paycheck when you make your next change to your system and for every change after that? Get the picture yet?

 

[andromedaaudio]

My Wisdom Audio Adrenaline Rush with WAMM subwoofer towers weigh in excess of 1400 pounds per side

I think that s the coolest name for a speaker company /system to date .
Do you have pics carlos ?

 

[Carlos269]

I think that s the coolest name for a speaker company /system to date .
Do you have pics carlos ?

Check out some pictures in my member’s gallery, which has not been updated with my latest equipment in some time:

Friday night listening

 

[Kingrex]

Having a pro come at least once is an invaluable learning experience. Plumbers, electricians, fitters, tin workers, boiler etc all have to apprenticeship. You don't learn reading.a book. You need someone there to explain the process. I had a couple different people set up my phono cartridge in the past. I watched and asked questions. I got a lot better at it after being taught.

 

[Carlos269]

Having a pro come at least once is an invaluable learning experience. Plumbers, electricians, fitters, tin workers, boiler etc all have to apprenticeship. You don't learn reading.a book. You need someone there to explain the process. I had a couple different people set up my phono cartridge in the past. I watched and asked questions. I got a lot better at it after being taught.

You also admitted to paying Jay from Jay’s Audio Lab a consultation fee..enough said.

 

[microstrip]

(...) I had a couple different people set up my phono cartridge in the past. I watched and asked questions. I got a lot better at it after being taught.

It depends on user perspective and way of living this hobby. I read about Michael Fremer articles on the 92º SRA and microscope technique and decided to stay with it. Since then phono cartridge set up became mostly a geometrical exercise. Having accss to a SOTA NIKON stereo microscope helped a lot.

But surely we can always learn a lot from experts - even if we do not agree with their ideas and do not apply their techniques.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

You also admitted to paying Jay from Jay’s Audio Lab a consultation fee..enough said.

that is a cheap shot.

asking for advice from each other is the foundation of our hobby. much of it is free, but it should not matter whether you pay for it or not. being open to learning is a positive. better to pay for someone's time, than buy blindly. we can easily find reasons to pick on each other, for some it's their default approach.

 

[Carlos269]

that is a cheap shot.

asking for advice from each other is the foundation of our hobby. much of it is free, but it should not matter whether you pay for it or not. being open to learning is a positive. better to pay for someone's time, than buy blindly. we can easily find reasons to pick on each other, for some it's their default approach.

Mike, speaking from experience you have not learned much after all these years. Still chasing the “latest & greatest” shiny thing on glossy magazine pages to try to stay relevant.

There are some that stay mainstream like yourself and those of us that dive deep and explore not the costliest, but the best components. One day you may become enlighten and realize that the best equipment is not the newest or most expensive and are not found on “Main street” but rather in those special places where only the hardcore fanatics on the periphery of the hobby, crafting components and assembling systems for themselves, for the passion of it, are.

We are not looking for affirmation from others but driven by discovery and a pursuit of musicality. Your comment about “asking for advice from each other is the foundation of our hobby” therefore strikes me as ironic coming from you and your well stablished and documented record.

Let me know when you want to discuss filament bias, starved filament, current source follower design topology, field-coil full range driver‘s parameter modulation, transcoding with HQPlayer and let’s see how really “open to learning” you really are.