A question about room demands on speakers

[Zero000]

Here's a few notes on my room:

1) Duettas 40" away from front wall.
2) Place them at 42" and the soundstage literally leaps forward at you. However, I got a bit sick of having stuff landing way forward of the plane of the speakers. So they sit at 40 inches which stops such a forwardly spatial presentation.
3) There are traps behind each Duetta placed in the corners at 45 degrees to the plane of the speaker. These are absolutely 100% mandatory. Take them away and the sound becomes confused to the extent of being "echoy".
4) Further forward placement results in bass loss at the listening position.
5) The listening seat is against the back wall. Reflections are minimised by some seriously thick velvet type curtains. These must be beige in colour (LOL) or you are screwed.
6) Placing traps on the rear wall corners reduces bass so I didn't do it. That shows you there is some rear wall bass re-inforcement I guess but that is true of a friend's Audio Note system when you listen from all of 30 feet away I'd guess. Which he does. He's driving AN Es with an Audio Note Tomei (211 based amp).

Incidentally, when he first heard my 211 amps driving my first pair of standard refurb Duettas, he went nuts about them, nearly driving to Austria to get a pair, with constant praise on the phone to me. Now he's moved from 2A3/300B AN amps to the AN Tomei, which he seems really happy with loaded with ELROG or PSVANE 211s.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Justin, just sitting here listening to my NATs/Zus w a massive smile
I remember how I was laughing a bit maniacally to yr Duettas, you had to do a lot to calm me down and temper my enthusiasm w reality LOL
I've just moved my Zus closer to front wall, now 7.5' from it
I'm finding this is the best balance of bass response, and vastly improved imaging and transparency from my London apartment
I can't replicate in any way yr Interstellas' thrill ride or visceral wall of bass
But I'm getting my own brand of magic, a really cohesive sound, much less brash and in my face than in London
Those nay sayers who dismiss Zu as being all mouth and trousers really need to hear what they can do
Their new flagship when released will be quite something
The new room acoustics/balanced pwr and dedicated lines/SETs/high efficiency full range synergy really bearing fruit
I get yr friend's AN presentation, but that's prob not for me
AN and Kondo always seems a bit too coloured for my liking

 

[bonzo75]

Too coloured is right. The only time I heard AN sound good was this Windsor show with their TT, cart, and the M6 pre+ phono. The highs and mids had an amazing tone and purity unlike the usual color. Could not make out bass as those speakers in the corner awfully bloat bass.

But otherwise that over gorgeous color has always bored me

 

[spiritofmusic]

I can concur w Justin and Ked on one thing
The tone of analog on Apogees is a step up over digital
Going cd to Lp at Brian's Divas demo was fundamental
I can't imagine how stellar Lp would be on Interstellas type install

 

[Zero000]

It is a shame you had so little time. We could have deployed my record player...

 

[Rodney Gold]

Sitting near a boundary will always enhance bass , walls and corners are bass pressure points. sometimes just enough , sometimes too much
I can roll my listening chair closer to the wall behind me for more bass .. but it also changes the rest of the spectrum doing so

 

[bonzo75]

I can concur w Justin and Ked on one thing
The tone of analog on Apogees is a step up over digital
Going cd to Lp at Brian's Divas demo was fundamental
I can't imagine how stellar Lp would be on Interstellas type install

It's not so much tone which happens on most speakers when you pull out analog but as both ddk and I said, the analog bass and the vertical density bass augment each other, the panels get some sort of more micro energy, and the backward soundstage increases

 

[microstrip]

I can concur w Justin and Ked on one thing
The tone of analog on Apogees is a step up over digital
Going cd to Lp at Brian's Divas demo was fundamental
I can't imagine how stellar Lp would be on Interstellas type install

You have a point here - IMHO Apogees seem much better suited to LP than digital. Probably also because the natural mechanical cutoff of vinyl filters the very low frequencies that can disturb the panel. When I had the Duetta Signatures the sound of digital - Forsell air bearing CD player and DAC - was nothing special. It was one of the reasons I only kept them for little time.

Did you ever consider going active with SE triodes directly connected to each ribbon? It is the kind of project that I would consider if I had the time!

 

[spiritofmusic]

Justin, analog would have been fun
Alas, I should have left Peter a bit earlier in hindsight
Ked, no suprise analog would excel
It remains the King of microdynamics and bass continuity
Maybe Apogees are the ultimate forensic device for this, even more than horns (esp re bass)

 

[Zero000]

You have a point here - IMHO Apogees seem much better suited to LP than digital. Probably also because the natural mechanical cutoff of vinyl filters the very low frequencies that can disturb the panel. When I had the Duetta Signatures the sound of digital - Forsell air bearing CD player and DAC - was nothing special. It was one of the reasons I only kept them for little time.

Did you ever consider going active with SE triodes directly connected to each ribbon? It is the kind of project that I would consider if I had the time!

What? That IS the problem with vinyl if your phono stage doesn't filter subsonic frequencies. The panels go NUTS when they see it. It is a VERY REAL problem at volume if your record hits a bump and produces loads of sub 20Hz energy. It causes huge excursions of the bass panel. I explained that to Marc. Hope it didn't fall on deaf ears.

IMHO you MUST used a subsonic filer with vinyl on Apogees of there is no provision in the crossover, which mine nor the original crossover had. Whether that's done by amp or phono stage or whatever, it SHOULD be done.

 

[bonzo75]

Does not having such filter affect other frequencies?

 

[bonzo75]

Should I assume the phonos I heard had such filters, is that standard? What would have been the sound like if they did not have it

 

[spiritofmusic]

Justin, I'll check w Peter Lederman, but there is no mention of said filter in the Straingauge literature
Nor in other phonostages I've owned
You're ADAMANT this filter is mandatory for Lp playback to be practical?

 

[Zero000]

Justin, I'll check w Peter Lederman, but there is no mention of said filter in the Straingauge literature
Nor in other phonostages I've owned
You're ADAMANT this filter is mandatory for Lp playback to be practical?

Well mine doesn't have such a filter and it is a problem. Mind you are hardly use vinyl these days. The record player isn't even in the room, which is a bit of a shame I need to put right.

The fact is you will see huge excursions because of it. That puts strain on the amp and the panel. If you are using a 70 Watt amp you don't really want most of the power being dumped into the speakers being used up by tracking record warps, ripples etc.

 

[bonzo75]

Well mine doesn't have such a filter and it is a problem. Mind you are hardly use vinyl these days. The record player isn't even in the room, which is a bit of a shame I need to put right.

The fact is you will see huge excursions because of it. That puts strain on the amp and the panel. If you are using a 70 Watt amp you don't really want most of the power being dumped into the speakers being used up by tracking record warps, ripples etc.

Doing a quick search this should have been a problem for ported speakers as well, and modem phonos seem to filter out below 20

 

[spiritofmusic]

Hmm, more to ponder on
Justin, despite my proclivity to perhaps aim to do more streaming in the long run for day to day listening w the SGM, it would really be pointless to do less Lp listening if the Duettas would really suit analog
But an ultrasonic filter has never ever been a consideration
Maybe aim to spend big on a good ultrasonic Lp cleaner and Lp flattener?
The audiophile spend merry-go-'round never ends

 

[bonzo75]

Has anyone done a compare of subsonic filters

 

[spiritofmusic]

I don't think so Ked
If they're integral to phonos, then you're still a/b'g phonos, not filters
Justin's warnings are the first I've heard of them tbh

 

[bonzo75]

I don't think so Ked
If they're integral to phonos, then you're still a/b'g phonos, not filters
Justin's warnings are the first I've heard of them tbh

I was just joking

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ah, I remember the concept of joking, before all this safe space/social media malarkey came along
Ked, just when you tonight it was safe to play yr beloved Decca SXL pressing of Holst Planets Suite, or Japanese Atlantic pressing of LZ111, here comes Justin to **** on yr and my parade
If it REALLY is true that Lp warps, undulations and pops/clicks push the Duettas bass panels to their limits and hence push amps demands into the Red Zone, it's a major consideration