A question about room demands on speakers

[bonzo75]

Ah, I remember the concept of joking, before all this safe space/social media malarkey came along
Ked, just when you tonight it was safe to play yr beloved Decca SXL pressing of Holst Planets Suite, or Japanese Atlantic pressing of LZ111, here comes Justin to **** on yr and my parade
If it REALLY is true that Lp warps, undulations and pops/clicks push the Duettas bass panels to their limits and hence push amps demands into the Red Zone, it's a major consideration

I don't think so, no one would have used them then. Most old time apogee users are all analog users. Jason Bloom was a big lover of vinyl and voiced them that way. So, even if Justin is right, it should have been easy to sort out.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Well, maybe it's a function of Justin's Duettas-room interaction
Or his tt isoln
Maybe nodes in conjunction w floor- and air-borne vibns are concocting a brew that on vinyl imperfections challenges his Interstellas to the limit
Or that he has badly cared-for/thrift shop warped vinyl LOL
This makes me even more adamant I need to max out my tt isoln w initial spend before potential Duettas investment, w Rogoz > Minus K or Stacore Adv or Kuraka active
And ultrasonic cleaner and Lp flattener
The spending never QUITE stops...
This all seems like buying a Bugatti Chiron and driving around and around a supermarket car park littered w potholes and speed bumps

 

[bonzo75]

Well, maybe it's a function of Justin's Duettas-room interaction
Or his tt isoln
Maybe nodes in conjunction w floor- and air-borne vibns are concocting a brew that on vinyl imperfections challenges his Interstellas to the limit
Or that he has badly cared-for/thrift shop warped vinyl LOL
This makes me even more adamant I need to max out my tt isoln w initial spend before potential Duettas investment, w Rogoz > Minus K or Stacore Adv or Kuraka active
And ultrasonic cleaner and Lp flattener
The spending never QUITE stops...
This all seems like buying a Bugatti Chiron and driving around and around a supermarket car park littered w potholes and speed bumps

I heard the following perform very well with Divas
Acoustic Solid One on One (used 3 to 4k)m Kuzma 4p, Ortofon a90, some used Geman SS phono 2k.
New Linn Lp12


I don't think any fantastic TT is required. PTP Lenco, Schopper, with a decent cart and phono are fine.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ked, we're not talking about fantastic tts
By yr and Justin accts, Apogees bring out the v best in analog, and in contrast to over neutral gear, doesn't embarrass lesser ancillaries
But Justin is a long term user of Duettas and vinyl and is highlighting a major concern
That's why I'm wondering if it's a function of his tt setup &/or room, not vinyl per se

 

[microstrip]

What? That IS the problem with vinyl if your phono stage doesn't filter subsonic frequencies. The panels go NUTS when they see it. It is a VERY REAL problem at volume if your record hits a bump and produces loads of sub 20Hz energy. It causes huge excursions of the bass panel. I explained that to Marc. Hope it didn't fall on deaf ears.

IMHO you MUST used a subsonic filer with vinyl on Apogees of there is no provision in the crossover, which mine nor the original crossover had. Whether that's done by amp or phono stage or whatever, it SHOULD be done.

I was addressing the audio content of properly played vinyl, not the the low frequencies due to resonances in the playing system. But as people already referred most phono units include an ultra low bass filter.

I have a few CDs that managed to flap the panel of SoundLabs - they have very large transformers for bass that extend response in the low bass. It was never a problem for vinyl.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Then I guess we can assume this is a moot point
Phonos mostly have ultrasonic filters
Maybe Justin's doesn't and he's had to add on an after mkt filter?

 

[spiritofmusic]

Can we return to the concept of vinyl being so much more impressive than digital on Apogees?
Is this apparent across the board?
Ie Original Deccas? Reissues? Digital masterings on Lp? Rock, jazz, classical, electronica, dance, ambient?
How do Apogees other than the aforementioned sub 20Hz rumble deal w low level surface noise?
Is it more analysis and less warmth?
Or is it a totally engrossing experience, balance of detail and tone?
What am I most going to notice, find impossible to live without, hearing my fave lps on Duettas v box spkrs?
As if that isn't enough qs LOL

 

[Zero000]

We've covered this all before. These threads just go round in circles.

No it doesn't have an ultrasonic filter and nor does yours Marc so you told me. Most do. For this reason. any subwoofer will have the same problem with vinyl. For christsakes all you need to do is look at your cones when you place the stylus on the record, or watch your cones when the record goes over a ripple. You'll see it on your cones even at much higher frequencies than 20Hz.

Vinyl is **** in this regard. It is that simple.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Tell Ked
He's the one who's been to Apogees demos playing vinyl and not detected any issues
Then again, he's not playing any Trentmoller or Nine Inch Nails LOL
Btw I was only assuming my Straingauge doesn't have the filter not having read about it, but maybe as Micro suggests, all current phonos incl mine do

 

[Zero000]

Bored on vinyl LF now.

Let's talk about something else.

Frogs, maybe???

Here is a hallucinogenic one.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Hmm, HOP onto different discussion is what I believe you're trying to say, yes?
Btw, talking about frogs, see if you can hear Mahogany Frog, esp albums "Senna" and "DO5"
Love fuzz bass? You'll ADORE these boys

 

[Zero000]

None on TIDAL

 

[spiritofmusic]

Well, you'll have to seek them out the old fashioned way, like off Amazon on cd
How very revolutionary
But you won't be disappointed
Some clips on YouTube
Any band listing instrumentation incl Farf Muff is a winner in my book

 

[spiritofmusic]

Justin, this is kind of where I am
Other than the Denman Exponential Horn which alone stands as my single most cosmic experience in audio, yr Duettas stand head and shoulders above any spkr I've heard, incl all the mega $ usual suspects I've heard from Wilson to Magico to Rockport (please no bricks on my head from fans of those, just IMHO)
Nearest thrill ride was the Cessaro Liszts which had a similar "hairs up on back of neck" effect on me, but overall spell spoilt by discontinuous bass
Yr Interstellas just great across the board, from vertically scaled bass I've never heard anywhere w true depth, extension and speed
Exhilarating
Mids that were v differentiated on the piano tone and impact of hammer/decay of note, and racy, tumbling quality to treble
The effect has not left my memory
And I would switch if considerations on install and system/room synergy as easy as my Zus, and budget in the bank
My current setup as of listening for 3 hrs straight today is that I've hit a rare level of utopia myself as you have, and if Apogees did not exist I would abs not be looking to move on
I'm going to mull over room size issues, appropriateness of 211s in a room 3x bigger than yrs, that ribbon tone on digital, the poss shortfalls of infrasonic bass noise from vinyl on those bass panels, and being open to having to consider SS if tube synergy w them just doesn't crystallise here, the fact that my current sound has caught up and in some ways exceeded my long term reference that first heard 2 yrs ago was wayyyy in front of mine (and I'm loathe to ditch a very good thing)
As I say, going to mull things over...

 

[bonzo75]

Justin, this is kind of where I am
Other than the Denman Exponential Horn which alone stands as my single most cosmic experience in audio, yr Duettas stand head and shoulders above any spkr I've heard, incl all the mega $ usual suspects I've heard from Wilson to Magico to Rockport (please no bricks on my head from fans of those, just IMHO)
Nearest thrill ride was the Cessaro Liszts which had a similar "hairs up on back of neck" effect on me, but overall spell spoilt by discontinuous bass
Yr Interstellas just great across the board, from vertically scaled bass I've never heard anywhere w true depth, extension and speed
Exhilarating
Mids that were v differentiated on the piano tone and impact of hammer/decay of note, and racy, tumbling quality to treble
The effect has not left my memory
And I would switch if considerations on install and system/room synergy as easy as my Zus, and budget in the bank
My current setup as of listening for 3 hrs straight today is that I've hit a rare level of utopia myself as you have, and if Apogees did not exist I would abs not be looking to move on
I'm going to mull over room size issues, appropriateness of 211s in a room 3x bigger than yrs, that ribbon tone on digital, the poss shortfalls of infrasonic bass noise from vinyl on those bass panels, and being open to having to consider SS if tube synergy w them just doesn't crystallise here, the fact that my current sound has caught up and in some ways exceeded my long term reference that first heard 2 yrs ago was wayyyy in front of mine (and I'm loathe to ditch a very good thing)
As I say, going to mull things over...

Marc, I will guarantee you that it only gets better. And you will never consider a cone again, the more you listen to this. Only possibility is a large well integrated horn which can do similar bass and dynamics, and more musical flow, and in your particular room, give you more scale due to a bigger triangle. That said, given your taste in music, Apogee will be better anyway. And frankly, if I already owned a vinyl rig, Apogee would have been the easier choice for me. Only thing with horns is it is more plug and play, while Apogee amps may or may not work straight up, and room positioning will take more time, so you can run more threads here and we can chat

 

[Zero000]

It is only hi-fi Marc. I've spent way more on a car than I have ever spent on hi-fi, much to Ked's disgust LOL.

Shame you don't live closer.

I'm pretty flattered you enjoyed my system so much. I like it, and when I look at people's faces (a friend with MBLs in particular) it is a great source of satisfaction to me when I see the look of pure astonishment on their faces.

 

[microstrip]

Can we return to the concept of vinyl being so much more impressive than digital on Apogees?
Is this apparent across the board?
Ie Original Deccas? Reissues? Digital masterings on Lp? Rock, jazz, classical, electronica, dance, ambient?
How do Apogees other than the aforementioned sub 20Hz rumble deal w low level surface noise?
Is it more analysis and less warmth?
Or is it a totally engrossing experience, balance of detail and tone?
What am I most going to notice, find impossible to live without, hearing my fave lps on Duettas v box spkrs?
As if that isn't enough qs LOL

I have raised this issue before - perhaps people preference is mainly due to musical preferences and system, not by magic qualities or absolutes, but no luck, no one ever wanted to debate and follow up ... Each side just wants to claim that his preference is the absolute best!

BTW digital masterings on LP is a taboo subject in audio forums ...

 

[Zero000]

Tone junkies should apply outside of the house of Apogee IMHO and into the colourful land of Audio Note or similar, where tone as a major factor of ownership is held in high esteem.

Overdoses of tone in my view constitutes high levels colouration. But so what? If that's yer bag...

I won't mind if you stick with your Zu's. That will be the path of least hassle & worry for you.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Justin, good thing I've also never told Ked how much I've spent on my '68 Citroen DS Pallas, or my home cinema (pride of place, a highly modded Barco 1309 CRT PJ, not much change from, ahem, £50k!)
And I'm due to do a major refurb to the Citroen this winter
Cost? A pr of Duettas and s/h Gryphon SS amp

 

[spiritofmusic]

Justin, you seem eminently sensible, but to imply devotion to tone is skewed is wrong
Tone w no realistic speed yes, but tone on Zus via NATs is full fat, discriminating and v agile
Just not the epitome of max transparency or imaging
But I'm getting much closer in my new room